Kitchen Designer/Fitter Subbing Electrical Work.

[iambartman]

Hi folks, first post here so be gentle.

I'm a former kitchen designer who has kind of fallen into fitting, started off working for a leading kitchen supplier and kind of organically fell into helping out family and friends with design and fits but as times gone on I seem to be getting more involved in managing projects for recommendation's & referrals with people I don't know, the expectation level has also increased with customers asking for more involved works.

I've got a plasterer and tiler I work closely with but have always avoided any electrical or gas works, its just not my bag, the way I see it, I'm not qualified so I don't touch it although I have a decent understanding from previous employment (none residential).

Last job was a proper faff as the client arranged their own electrics, I ended up having to stop installation twice while the sparky came to site to do work as the customer had incorrectly specified socket locations, forgot to mention the plinth and counter lights they wanted fitting and the connection for the hood ended up interfering with the hood mounting, all in all, I ended up on site about a week longer than I should and the customer ended up paying more to both myself and the sparky, obviously, she blames us for her cock up.....

So, going forward I want to take more of a role in the electrical works and sub contract my own sparky's but its kind of new ground for me so I want to ask a few questions of the pro's to make sure I integrate their work with mine correctly.

- First question I have, quoting. I generally quote a fixed price excluding changes, this has always worked well for me as really, unless something really out of the ordinary happens, I'm generally covered but I'm keen to put a budget forward for a customer, typically, I've found that much of the work I've been doing recently has had full strip outs and full re-wires.

I'm really hesitant to pull someone to site to quote on jobs I've not got yet, I'm probably only getting 1 in 3 jobs I quote and some of the clients I visit are 100% tire kickers, is there a standard formula I could use to budget for example;

£x / Ring Main - small / medium / large
£x / Double Socket
£x / Single oven
£x / Double oven
£x / Undercounter lighting wiring & switch's
£x / Plinth lighting wiring & switch's

A typical installation, I'd be looking at a new ring main, 4-5 double sockets at counter level, double oven, and 3-4 under counter sockets for integrated dishwasher and either a built under fridge and freezer or a 50/50, few kitchens I've done also have had built in microwaves, counter and plinth lights etc

What I don't want to do is put an estimate in and find out I'm way out and end up making a loss on that part of the job or over quote and put myself out of work.

Alternatively, my design software allows for detail such as socket locations and wiring detail, if I was to send that to an electrical contractor with images of the current installation (fuse box etc) would they be able to quote to a reasonable degree of accuracy from that?

- Second question I have, what can I legally and safely do in a customers home from an electrical perspective, reason I ask this is there is nothing worse that installing a beautiful kitchen with glass splash backs, quality worktops and sexy glass appliances leaving it finished with cheapo white sockets and switches, can I upgrade these for a customer myself or would I need to pull a sparky back to put finishing touches in?

I'm sure these questions sound very basic to some of you guys but I'm really anal about stuff like this and its something I'm growing into so am treating it with a certain amount of trepidation.

Also, if I'm coming at this from completely the wrong angle I'd appreciate any advice anyone could give me.

Cheers.

 

[Notch7]

Pricing electrics is difficult.......at least from the point of a main contractor putting in prices to cover electrics.

I know what its like -you cant get an electrician to quote for every one of your enquiries, but your customer wants a fixed price contract.
Even if you get a job, its still hard to get an electrician to go round and quote before he starts........

In regards to costing the problem is not so much the new stuff, its altering / extending / testing the existing.

So the problem is a fixed price per socket etc doesnt relate a great deal to the number of hours work

 

[iambartman]

Thanks Notch.. well kind of.... not what I was hoping to hear

That's exactly the problem though, was kind of hoping there would be some form of standard formula so i could at least 'estimate costings subject to inspection'. Bit of a ball ache but so is faffing around on site for hours waiting on sparky's or any other trade for that matter when the end users have cocked up then having that awkward conversation to tell them that they have just cost themselves additional labour. Punters don't seem to understand the concept of time = money.

I'm hoping that, going forward I can get as much of the work under my own remit, my passion is the design and project management side anyway so am hoping to become a retailer / installer in future, should have paid more attention to how my old employer priced this sort of stuff up

 

[Notch7]

Thanks Notch.. well kind of.... not what I was hoping to hear

That's exactly the problem though, was kind of hoping there would be some form of standard formula so i could at least 'estimate costings subject to inspection'. Bit of a ball ache but so is faffing around on site for hours waiting on sparky's or any other trade for that matter when the end users have cocked up then having that awkward conversation to tell them that they have just cost themselves additional labour. Punters don't seem to understand the concept of time = money.

I'm hoping that, going forward I can get as much of the work under my own remit, my passion is the design and project management side anyway so am hoping to become a retailer / installer in future, should have paid more attention to how my old employer priced this sort of stuff up

Ive mostly done orangeries: typically 4dbls, 12 or so LEDs, 2 electric roof openers prices are around the £1,400 to £2,000+vat (Sussex/surrey).

Im sure electricians on here will give you a better idea of how to go about pricing. All I can tell you is the feedback I get from my electrician is that to achieve current testing of circuits and sign off along with difficulty of getting back to the board, its hard to guesstimate a price without a site visit from an electrician.

I think you would need to get an electrican to give you a breakdown of things like: new circuits back to board, testing, certification etc. Then cost for number of sockets etc -which is really the more minor part -hence why I dont think your breakdown will work -there is hardly any difference in cost to do 6 dbls instead of 4, but quite a lot of difference between using existing ring and taking a new ring back to board.

Im sure a pro electrician will be along with a far better explanation than my waffling!

 

[bobasd]

OP,
i'm not criticising but just glancing at your above says your out of your depth if you are indeed kitchen fitting?
whatever you mean by "former kit designer" doesnt really count when it comes to multi-trades fixing work.
as above, elec jobbing is often simply put on the clock in residential situations - London SE rates are well different to anywhere else.

why not try and get on with a kit fitting firm for a year or two?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Ring Main - small / medium / large

 

[terryplumb]

Every job / house layout is different. You are not going to get a fixed price for anything on your list ,that you can carry forward . you should let clients arrange their own electrics ,unless you can find a good spark who you can recommend to them ( and hopefully build up a working relationship with you). If your intention is to give your clients a fixed price for everything ,including electrics ,and you are directly getting paid by the client ,you in turn paying the trades people ,then your business model would have to include an uplift on all trades direct costs. That then inflates your price to your client. That makes you more expensive ,a recipe for less business not more. Keep electrics out of your quotes is my advice to you ,for what its worth. Good luck whichever way you decide to go.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I

I'm really hesitant to pull someone to site to quote on jobs I've not got yet, I'm probably only getting 1 in 3 jobs I quote and some of the clients I visit are 100% tire kickers, is there a standard formula I could use to budget for example;

Really I think the best you can get from an electrician is an idea of the likely cost, an estimate, if you provide him/her with a drawing of the layout showing positions of all items, position of the consumer unit, a precise list of what the customer wants and some really good photos of the place and the consumer unit. He/she would be better able to firm up the price once he has seen the actual job.

Best thing for you to do would be to ring a few and discuss it with them, explain what you could email them in the way of details, so they could provide an idea of cost. Do make sure they are actually qualified to do the work, rather than handymen with aspirations. Find a good one and build up a relationship.

Likewise with a gas fitter.

As others have suggested, I also think you are out of your depth with this judging by your questions.

 

[flameport]

I've found that much of the work I've been doing recently has had full strip outs and full re-wires.

For a new kitchen, there really is no other sensible option.

Kitchens tend to be the absolute worst for DIY bodges and similar efforts by others who have no clue what they are doing. Locating such things and attempting to repair will take a massive amount of time, plus there is the uncertainty of not really knowing exactly what was done previously unless everything is totally uncovered and inspected.

It's far easier, quicker and cheaper to just scrap whatever is there and install 100% new. That way you know exactly what is there, and it was installed properly.

 

[sparkwright]

Unless you have your own electrician at hand, you are always going to have problems with unreliable people doing electrical work.

It is important to get the wiring first-fixed correctly first time before the kitchen, plastering and tiling.

Kitchen fitters and designers often make the mistake of under-budgeting the electrics. All too often they think it is a matter of adding a socket here and there; and it will only take an hour or two. They also forget to include things.

As Flameport states, kitchen wiring can often be done badly during the last re-fit, which opens up a can of worms for the next man, who wants to do things properly.

However, some kitchen wiring will be reasonably good - so stripping out every single time won't always be necessary.

 

[ETAF]

when we had Wickes install our kitchen all the elctrical work that we may want was priced on a form - so if we had decided to do all the electrical work via them , they had a fixed price for everything.
Fitting consumer unit, new ring main , extra plugs , lighting etc
Also the fitter when he came along to check out the job, had a list of trades he used and was able to quote for plastering, putting new ceiling and painting etc
So it is possible to do
I dont know if ALL wickes kitchens stores use the same formula/form

Our electrician who is slowly rewiring the house for us, also uses a price per socket/switch/lamp etc - so we know how much a room will cost to do as we go

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

So it is possible to do
I dont know if ALL wickes kitchens stores use the same formula/form

They will work on a some parts of a trade they win, some they loose on, but on average make a profit overall. The OP needs to find an electrician willing to work on that basis.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I have caught a cold or two on kitchen electrical work. I will only provide a fixed price once:

1. I have visited the site to see what is there. Note that location and condition of the consumer unit and supply is important.
2. I have a confirmed kitchen layout plan
3. All appliances make and models have been confirmed
4. Location of all lights, sockets, switches etc are decided

The schedule is confirmed and signed by main contractor (you, it’s you who is paying me) and the customer.

ANY alterations/changes are costed and agreed (signed) by you and the customer.

I know it adds time, but as you know it leaves deep holes to fall into if you don’t.

You know:
we’ve just decided we’ll have one of those Quooker Taps by the sink.
Didn’t we tell you about the warming drawer?
We are going for an induction hob instead of the gas one…

 

[securespark]

Yeah, I've had that. I even did a fixed price job, but as you say, you cross the t's and dot the i's. This customer thought the fixed price would remain fixed once they had decided they wanted loads of extra stuff doing. You know, you quote for a kitchen and they want a rewire....

 

[gasbanni]

All you need is to find a decent sparks and gas man ....sorted. Once your in a working relationship it's easy ....just call, them in prior to quoting.
They'll see stuff you won't.

Worked for years with kitchen fitters .......and designers ...usually the kitchen fitter will call me in if the heating needs altering or a new gas supply needs running in.

By the way Most new kitchen fits involve a new consumer unit these days.