Kitchen wiring query - Scotland (or anywhere really)

[kitchenwithproblem]

I am presently having a new kitchen fitted and apart from a whole serious of complaints I have come across what I would class as probably a major cause for concern.

The electrician has installed all the appliances with isolation switched above the worktops (as we requested). These will consist of hob, oven, fitted microwave and free standing under counter dishwasher.

We found that the dishwasher was leaking on Friday night as the kitchen floor was flooded. To try and prevent damage to the kick boards under the units we removed the one piece that was in contact with the water. The kick board was not fixed but only standing in place (I can deal with this).

What we found under the unit shocked us (almost literally). The isolation switch from above the worktop appears to be connected to a loose socket, on the end of a piece of cable, which is not fixed and is lying loose on the floor. The dishwasher is plugged into this socket. The socket was lying inches away from the water that was coming from the dishwasher and I dread to think what would have happened had we not removed the kick board. we found the leak when my wife stepped in the pool of water as it made it's way to the kitchen door.

Apart from poor quality workmanship and dangerous practice, are there any regulations (in Scotland) about sockets in the kitchen and their position in relation to the floor? The other more practical issue here is if the dish washer needs to be moved we had no way of unplugging it from this socket lying on the floor.

Any advice appreciated. (apart form ditch the kitchen supplier, as they already have 90% of the money for the kitchen).

PS - the isolation switch has been turned off and will stay off until resolved.

 

[RF Lighting]

It doesn't sound too bad to me. A little sloppy yes, but certainly not dangerous.

 

[securespark]

BS 7671 does not have specific rules about the siting of equipment save to say it should be mounted so as to prevent damage and the equipment chosen should be suited to its environment, neither of which have been adhered to in your case. The socket should be fixed and the cable clipped up where possible. It should be mounted away from possible water leaks.

The building regs have more specific advice. Fix accessories to the fabric of the building and away from potential contact with water.

Looks like your fitter is not a proper electrician. Ask him to ensure the installation is to BS7671:2008 (including inspection, testing & certification) or else you won't be paying him.....

 

[kitchenwithproblem]

Here is a quick picture of what I found under the unit.

Untitled

• kitchenwithproblem
• 27 Jul 2008
• 1

 

[RF Lighting]

It could do with a couple of screws putting in, but it is not unsafe left like that.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Per the above, the grey twin & earth cable should be clipped and the socket should be securely fixed.
If you do not do this the socket box will have no strain relief for the cable.
Flexible cable and a rubber socket would have been better - these are designed as "flying leads".

 

[Chri5]

Frequently the sparks is long gone when the white goods turn up.

In addition when the work was finished by the sparks there's a good chance that the cabinets, work top and all the other gubbins were not on site.

So the sparks may have left the socket floating since he didn't know the absolute final position of the white goods and couldn't define the position due to the absence of the floor cabinets.

It's quite common for floating sockets, which should have been the subject of a final fix (read: screw to lower wall) adjacent to it's required location, to be left like your picture shows.

Have a word with the kitchen fitters and ask them why it was left loose and before ripping the sparks a new 4r5e confirm who should have been responsible for final positioning of the socket.

I'd check the other connections for the other electrical white goods, it is unlikely to be the only floating socket.

 

[skenk]

It's unlikely you would have gotten a shock if the water reached the socket as a fuse would probably go as soon as that happened.

Why can't you unplug the machine and move it?? If the socket is wired behind or through some obstruction you can cut the plug off and re-wire it.

It is normal for kick boards to be removable although usually thay have some clips or are simply siliconed in to keep them in place.

It is untidy though, the cable should be clipped and the socket should be fixed to something, the underside of the cabinet perhaps if you've got a stubby screwdriver.

it is quite possible you should have had a building warrant for the works if it's a flat or house of more than 2 storeys, although it seems most people don't bother unless the layout of the flat is changing. . . Defo should get an installation certificate and test results tho.

 

[kitchenwithproblem]

It gets worse!!!

Regarding the above issue, the dishwasher was my own and was on site all the time. In fact the kitchen fitters even managed to damage a marble floor moving it (they had dropped an old door hinge on the floor and then dragged the dishwasher over it.

BUT, here's my next query.

Electric oven.

My old oven was wired with it's own circuit with a clearly marked RCD in the main fusebox. I came home tonight to see that the cooker RCD was in the off position but the oven was still powered up (don't worry, I wasn't using it, the clock was on).

On further investigation I found that the oven and gas hob were plugged into (with a 13A plug) a twin socket hidden behind the oven. This socket is connected to all the other sockets that are above the worktops on the same wiring.

What is the possibility that, when (and if, at this stage) I use the oven along with a microwave (also incorrectly fitted - haven't checked the wiring) and a kettle etc, the Kitchen Socket RCD will trip?

Is this safe?

Is it legal?

Is it good workmanship?

Have I been stitched up for a kitchen that is one disaster after another?

Feel free to answer as many or few of the questions above.

Thanks for listening.

 

[JohnD]

When you say "RCD" I think you probably mean "MCB"

The sockets you show ought to be screwed to the wall. this is a simple task.

It is acceptable and not ususual to plug a single oven (which has a 13A plug) into a socket on the general ring. However, if you already have a Cooker circuit, with a conveniently positioned outlet, already, then IMO it is better to supply even a small single oven, or a dual fuel cooker, through that. However, in this case it is necessary to fuse down the circuit, either by changing the MCB to a 16A one, or by fitting a 13A socket tpo the exting outlet (this can be quite difficult as the cable is very thicjk and stiff, but there are ways of doing it).

I will guess that the sockets are supplied from a 32A ring. this might trip if you simultaneously ran three or more large appliances, such as an oven, a tumble drier, a washing machine and a dishwasher, and at least three of then were drawing max power at the same time (this depends on them being on a heating cycle)

Some people think that kitchen fitters do not make good electricians

 

[baldelectrician]

Any signs of paperwork for the electrics? You should have had a couple of Minor Works certs or an Electrical Installation Cert.

If the work was done or planned before 1st July the sockets require RCD protection (if the circuit is altered).
The other ciscuits don't (but will on works planned after 1st July)

One thing that springs to mind - how do you isolate the oven (without switching off the whole socket circuit) ?

The Scottish Building Standards kitchen leaflet
http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/pdfs/kitchens_no_builderwork_2.pdf

 

[kitchenwithproblem]

Thanks for the replies.

My error was the RCD it is a MCB as pointed out.

I did get to talk to the 'electrician' who wired in the new cooker. He has added the new oven and gas hob to the mains ring (?? is that right) that has all the kitchen sockets on it. The separate feed to the old oven that has it's own MCB has been "wired to one of the sockets" (his words). He has an fused on/off switch above the worktop that isolates the double socket where the oven and hob are plugged in.

I asked about the certificates and he did say that I would get a certificate when the work was done, then again, they also told me that they would have the work finished a week ago and they still have more to complete.

I have to add that I have, in the past two years, had to call on the services of a 'proper' electrician who I know is proud of his work and always leaves a neat and tidy finished job (even the cables in the loft were secured with evenly spaced clips) although it is a pity he doesn't fit kitchens.

Just to continue my rant and give you an idea of what I am putting up with. The kitchen fitters sent a plumber to drill a hole for the cooker hood to vent externally. They didn't tell him where to drill the hole or what size. So he produces his drill and cuts a 4" diameter circular hole from my kitchen through to the outside then produces a 5" rectangular flat vent kit. Square peg into round hole does not go....

 

[gm4pgv]

Kitchenwithproblem, you sound like a right pain in the but to me, your spark is doing his job just leave him alone to get on with it, customers like you leave me cold!

 

[RF Lighting]

WTF???

You get upset when customers want a job doing properly?

Are you for real?

 

[baldelectrician]

your spark is doing his job

May be so, but not particuarly well- sockets flapping in the wind as it were.

KWP
Doesn't look dangerous- maybe a bit careless and untidy

You could get the spark you trust to give the work the once over and produce a report on the wiring done by the kitchen company, prior to handing over any more money to them.

The report (mini pir) may cost £35-£50 - ask for a costing prior to getting him in.

The money you spend will give you peace of mind (if all is OK) or a bargaining tool (if all is not OK) - either way a win-win situation for you.