LABC insisting on Part P qualified to issue PIR

[tilla tech]

Hi

Can the LABC insist that a PIR should be for a whole house, when the reason it is needed is so a building notice completion cert can be issued for an extension.

The electrics on the extension were completed, no EIC by an electrician but he absconded when he had fall out with the builder. A PIR on the extension was given to the LABC but they are saying they need the PIR to be for the whole house the extension electrics are fed from a sub CU).

Also they are saying that the PIR has to be issued by a Part P electrician and it cannot be done on the IET PIR form!

Thanks
Which legislation/rules can I show them that it is not necessary?

 

[1john]

before 'part p' and all that, my LABC used to insist on either NICEIC (approoved contractor, as this was the only option at the time) or ECA contractors to do any work in HMO's (or should that be HoMO's?). I guess it is upto them what they are willing to accept.

Why cant you have a periodic report from a registered spark?

 

[Taylortwocities]

I guess it is upto them what they are willing to accept.

Why cant you have a periodic report from a registered spark?

1John is correct. The LABC hold the strings and there are no rules that govern what they will accept AFTER the fact.

The rules for notification are clear and the builder/electrician haven't follwed them, for whatever reason.

Normally a competent electrician can carry out a PIR but if they want a registered electrician then that is what they will accept.

I'm not aware of the detail of the installation but I would have thought that just the new addition would be all that is required. In addition any earthing that may/will have been done to the main supply.

PS Please note that there is no such thing as a "Part P Qualification".

 

[ban-all-sheds]

tilla - who was in charge of the project? Was it you, with the builder working to your direction, or was it the builder?

Before you started, how much did you know about the laws governing the activities that would take place, whose advice did you take concerning them, and what did you know about your LABC's procedures?

Was a full plans submission made, or just a Building Notice? If the latter, who on earth made that crazy and dangerous (as you may now be finding out) decision?

[EDIT]My apologies - I forgot that if a completion certificate is expected the work can't have been done via a Building Notice.[/EDIT]

If the former, what was said on it about the way that compliance with Part P would be ensured?

All of these factors affect who is now responsible for resolving the situation. It may be that your remedy is to go back to the builder, remind him that he was responsible for all of the work being done in compliance with the Building Regulations and that until that responsibility has been discharged, as proven by a Completion Notice from your LABC, he won't be paid. (Please don't say you've already paid him.)

Or it may be that because you didn't pay enough attention at the start, and because you didn't draw up proper contracts, you now have no choice but to do whatever your LABC demands. But there shouldn't be any difference in the price of a PIR done by a registered or unregistered electrician.

If your builder used a competent electrician, even if he was unregistered, there should be no problems found by the PIR. If he didn't then you can do one of the following:

1) Put it down to experience
2) Withhold some of the money
3) Sue him

You should take legal advice before doing #2 or #3.

 

[Paul_C]

Surely the first thing we need to know is if a building notice was submitted and the appropriate fees paid? If so, then the LABC has no authority to insist on any certificates; it's up to them to inspect to check compliance with the Building Regs. That's what their (extortionate) fee is for.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Here we go again.

The time to push back on that is at the start. Now it's at the end, if he accepted his LABC's Ts'n'Cs at the start, without protest, then no matter what we think of their Ts'n'Cs it is too late for him to try and force them to behave.

Through a mix (I expect) of ignorance, carelessness, naivety and a less than trustworthy builder he is now between a rock and a hard place. He needs his Completion Notice, so because of the above mix of reasons he is now going to have to go along with what LABC say.

He may have remedies against the builder, but against LABC he can do nothing.

 

[Paul_C]

he is now going to have to go along with what LABC say.

Or kick up a fuss and insist that LABC follows the same set of rules that they will be quick enough to say that he must follow.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

IT IS TOO LATE FOR THAT NOW!

 

[tilla tech]

I issued the PIR recently, the extension work finished two years ago.

Reason I'm asking is that I submitted a PIR for a rewire of a house in Bedford. The original electrician did only the first fix and scarppered , I went and finished it off, issued a PIR and the Bedford Council inspector was happy with it.

But the above property is in Luton Council. What I'm trying to find out is if the Part P rules actually mandate a registered Electrician do the PIR. If I can get something from the rules then I could show it to the council and they would likely to accept.

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Sorry - I (and I think all of us) read it as you being the guy with the extension.

There's nothing in the Building Regulations which says that only registered electricians can do PIRs because PIRs don't come within their scope.

Conversely there's nothing in them which says that councils have to accept a PIR from anybody, registered or not, after the event. It's up to them how to deal with notifiable work which was either not properly notified, or was not done as planned, or in some way wasn't done how they wanted.

Given how they play fast and loose with the rules and guidance which do exist and ignore what they are supposed to do, when it comes to areas where they are free to make up their own policy then the chances of arguing them into submission are pretty small.

Basically all you can do is to challenge them to show you where the law says what they claim, and when they fail hope they don't shrug and say "Nevertheless....".

All the questions in various posts above still apply, only to your client. If he can't get your PIR accepted, will he still pay you?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Bascially, the council need to issue a completion for the works. They need their backsides covered in case something (later) goes wrong.

As the correct procedure has not been followed they are looking for belt & braces assurance that the "expert" who says the wiring is OK is competent to sign it off. If later something goes toes up they have something in their files that says Tim Sparky signed it off and he is member number 1234 of Smasheyandnicey (or whoever).

 

[1john]

They are right not to accept a PIR for a new installation. A certificate states that the installation was designed, installed , inspected and tested to BS 7671. A PIR has limitations on it, anything that is concealed could be very wrong and dangerous, cables could be installed in any old place, there could be taped up connector blocks concealed.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They are prepared to accept a PIR.

But.

1) They want it for the whole house, not just the new work.
2) They want it done by a registered electrician.

(1) makes no sense, but re (2) that means they don't have to verify the electrician's credentials, as the scheme organisers are officially trusted to do that.

tilla's client should be grateful that they aren't taking 1john's hard-line approach, as that would mean ripping it out and starting again.

And it does look as if his client can add another bit of lack of attention to his list in that he didn't check with his LABC what their requirements were for having a PIR done. I hope tilla still gets paid, but TBH it can be a minefield for non-registered sparks to work in the domestic area these days, so it may be that he has to chalk this one up to experience. At least he won't have lost on materials.

 

[Taylortwocities]

They are prepared to accept a PIR.

............................
re (2) that means they don't have to verify the electrician's credentials, as the scheme organisers are officially trusted to do that.

IMO just being a registered installer in no way gives someone adequate credentials to carry out a PIR. I would want that person to have C&G 2391 and several years on the tools.

The guy could be a 5-day wonder and still be on the "Part P register".

 

[ban-all-sheds]

IMO just being a registered installer in no way gives someone adequate credentials to carry out a PIR. I would want that person to have C&G 2391 and several years on the tools.

But look at it from the CYA position of the council. They devolve the responsibility of checking the guy's credentials to an organisation whose procedures have been officially approved by the Government. If it all goes t**s up they will not be found to have acted negligently.

The guy could be a 5-day wonder and still be on the "Part P register".

Dunno about the others, but not even NICEIC will allow people who are just DIs to do PIRs - hence the

Also they are saying that ... it cannot be done on the IET PIR form!

They seem to know what they are up to in the A covering dept