I'm about to lay 60 x 30cm Porcelain tiles outside onto a concrete slab. Now I'm aware that you should use a suitable tile adhesive for porcelain (which I'm open to suggestions to what's best) but I'd just like to know why you couldn't just use a sand and cement mortar bed - does porcelain not adhere to this?
Laying Porcelain Tiles Outside
- Thread starter 1DIYer
- Start date
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Bump.
Have to ask as no replies...was this just a dumb question?
Thought some of the pro tilers could've given a reasonable answer as to why you couldn't use sand/cement as if laying slabs - just interested really.
Have to ask as no replies...was this just a dumb question?
Thought some of the pro tilers could've given a reasonable answer as to why you couldn't use sand/cement as if laying slabs - just interested really.
No not at all dumb; personally I’ve never tiled outside so did not post but from the limited knowledge I have, I don’t think using sand/cement as per patio slabs is acceptable, tiles must be laid on a solid bed flexible thinset mortar. Biggest problem with conventional powder cement polymer modified adhesive/grout products is they only seem to be specified as frost resistant so I’m unsure how they would stand the rigours of our winters. As this has come up before & as I use their products, I have contacted BAL technical to see if any of their products are suitable for this type of external use as I would also like to know! I will post back what they say.
In the meantime this may help;
http://www.ehow.com/how_5449757_lay-tile-outside.html
In the meantime this may help;
http://www.ehow.com/how_5449757_lay-tile-outside.html
first question...
are thoses tiles GRADED for outside??..i.e.Grade 5...
as for sand/cement mix ..imo no,,if those tiles are grade 5,..then i would advise a PTB adhesive(pourable thick bed)..so you will be getting full coverage...
for grout just make sure the one you pick is siutable for the Width you want,some will only go to max 5mm,but others up to 20mm+
again those tiles@600x300mm at grade 5,i would check with the tile mfr before doing anything?..how thick are they...
you will need to fix them good(if graded for the job in hand)..if not,. at that size they will have stress points,if not fixed correctly.
are thoses tiles GRADED for outside??..i.e.Grade 5...
as for sand/cement mix ..imo no,,if those tiles are grade 5,..then i would advise a PTB adhesive(pourable thick bed)..so you will be getting full coverage...
for grout just make sure the one you pick is siutable for the Width you want,some will only go to max 5mm,but others up to 20mm+
again those tiles@600x300mm at grade 5,i would check with the tile mfr before doing anything?..how thick are they...
you will need to fix them good(if graded for the job in hand)..if not,. at that size they will have stress points,if not fixed correctly.
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Thanks for the replies...they are suitable for external use (on the box it says 'calibre 5' - foreign text, guess that translates to 'grade 5') and are approx 9mm thick.
Although I understand that you should use the correct addy but if you could have use a bed of mortar it may have suited my purposes a bit better as the concrete slab the tiles will be laid upon is an old shed base made in 2 parts. Over the years one side has very slightly moved out of sync with the other and using a thicker bed would have lost any irregularities in the surface.
BTW I have jetwashed the concrete and will coat with SBR before tiling.
Cheers.
Although I understand that you should use the correct addy but if you could have use a bed of mortar it may have suited my purposes a bit better as the concrete slab the tiles will be laid upon is an old shed base made in 2 parts. Over the years one side has very slightly moved out of sync with the other and using a thicker bed would have lost any irregularities in the surface.
BTW I have jetwashed the concrete and will coat with SBR before tiling.
Cheers.
Unfortunately I can almost guarantee that will crack.
I wouldn't actually be tiling over the joint at any point, I plan to use it as a 'starting line' and tile away from it on each side. It's not that great a difference in levels between the two bases - which is otherwise sound - and will grind any high points away before starting.
Am I still looking at trouble some way?
Ta.
As I said I have no experience of exterior tiling, Tictic has recommended a PTB (pourable thick bed) adhesive & his advice is usually spot on but I can’t see anyone from BAL technical answering my query before Tuesday at the earliest.
OK thanks Richard, I've noted what Tictic has said and will investigate 'PTB', also will be interested in anything BAL respond with if you feel it's appropriate.
To be honest, I've said "about" to lay tiles, but really it will be sometime over the next few weeks. Just waiting for the weather to cool down (have we ever said that before in April?!) because if I use the addy recommended it's rapid-set and as a DIYer don't want it going off any quicker!
...usually....lol..... :roll...
OP...look into BAL super cover rapidflex as well....
...spot on...
...usually....lol..... :roll...
OP...look into BAL super cover rapidflex as well....
...spot on...
Cheers tictic, that BAL product looks ideal and great reports on it too.
Lighter bags, easy mix and 60% greater coverage claimed, must be a Pro (and DIY) Tilers dream!
Update;
I got a E mail back from BAL today which said;
"Most of our cement-based adhesives possessing "porcelbond technology" would be suitable but choose a flexible product for a better result for outdoors weather conditions, i.e. flexible.
For further guidance, please refer to the attached Technical Notes TN21.10."
The Technical Note was a “word” attachment to the E mail & I cant seem to find any way of linking it here, neither can find it on the BAL website so I can’t post a direct link to that either so I have just reproduced the text below;
-------------------
CONSIDERATIONS
When tiling an external area it is important to remember that the substrate must be capable of supporting the chosen finish. Therefore a solid concrete base should be chosen which should be preferably mesh-reinforced. It may be possible to fix directly to the surface of the concrete if it is sufficiently flat. Alternatively, for any minor differences, use a suitable levelling compound and, where there are larger differences, a cement/sand screed should be applied.
SURFACE PREPARATION
The sub-floor onto which it is intended to lay tiles must be sound and suitably stable for the purpose intended. The floor’s surface must be level, dry, clean and free of any dust, grease or loose material, for both interior and exterior floors.
Concrete - Any efflorescence, laitance, dirt and any other loose material must be totally removed by mechanical means only. The surface should then be washed and allowed to dry out before tiling starts. Concrete should be at least 6 weeks old before any finish is applied, unless BAL Green Screed Adhesive is to be used.
Any minor differences in level may be taken out using the tile adhesive but do not exceed the maximum recommended thickness of the adhesive. If the floor is uneven, a levelling compound, e.g. BAL ACRYBASE, should be used. For very uneven floors use a bonded modified cement/sand screed.
Cement/sand screed
To lay a bonded cement/sand screed:
• A slurry bonding coat will be required comprising of 2 parts OPC to 1 part BAL Bond by weight.
• The slurry bonding coat should be mixed to a creamy consistency and brush applied to the prepared concrete.
• Apply the mortar mix while the slurry mix is still wet.
• The mortar should be based on a 1:3 to 1:4.5 cement:sand mix where BAL Bond should be added at the rate of 10 litres per 50kg of cement using the minimum amount of water to gauge consistency.
Before laying ceramic tiles or natural stone onto a cement/sand screed, the screed should be covered and cured for 7 days followed by a further 14 days of continual air drying; a longer period may be necessary in poor drying conditions. Fresh screeds shrink during the drying process which can cause cracks to appear. As a consequence, tiles may crack if the screed is not allowed to dry out properly prior to installation.
Cutting
A good quality tile cutter may be used for vitrified or fully vitrified/porcelain tiles. However, a water-cooled diamond cutter is required for the cutting of all natural stone tiles. This process will necessitate that the tile is cleaned before use.
FIXING (see table of suitable products below)
• Make sure tiles and sub-floor are clean and dry.
• Do not fix tiles at temperatures below 5ºC.
• Mix tile adhesive, making sure that only sufficient is mixed for use; any unused material should be discarded. Do not add further liquid.
• Apply adhesive to a floor area of around 1m2 using a trowel capable of achieving a solid bed of adhesive.
• A maximum bed depth of 6mm should be applied when using a thin bed adhesive.
• If a thicker bed is required then use BAL PTB Flexible.
• Do not over spread adhesive; use only what can be tiled in 20 minutes.
• Press tiles firmly into place to achieve a solid bed of adhesive, with no voids beneath.
• Clean any surplus adhesive from the surfaces of the tiles with a clean, damp cloth as soon as possible. Cured adhesive will prove very difficult to remove.
• Clean adhesive from between joints to allow for grouting.
• Clean all tools immediately after use.
• The adhesive must be given a minimum of 24 hours to dry.
• Where necessary protect from adverse weather.
GROUTING (see table of suitable products below)
• Before grouting all adhesive must have dried properly, the drying time is usually 12-24 hours, unless a fast setting adhesive is used, then a drying time of 3 hours is normal. Thicker beds of adhesive and lower temperatures will reduce drying times.
• When the adhesive is set, mop the floor with hot water and a mild detergent to remove any surplus dust from the surface of the tile. This will prevent stains forming during the treatment.
• Make sure all joints are clean and dry.
• On rough textured or riven finish tiles, it may be necessary to use a suitable sealer before grouting is carried out.
• Remove excess sealer and leave to fully dry, before grouting.
• Grout must be pushed down firmly and all joints should be fully filled ensuring no air is trapped under the grout joints.
• It is essential that all excess grout is removed with a damp cloth or sponge.
• Leave to dry for a minimum of 24 hours.
• After grouting, ensure that the floor is perfectly clean and dry.
MOVEMENT JOINTS
Movement joints will be required and should be incorporated as per British Standard BS 5385. These joints should be a minimum of 6mm cross section. Perimeter movement joints may be filled with BAL Microseal Sealant. Dependant on trafficking, intermediate joints may need to be filled with either a) harder-wearing and more durable material, e.g. an epoxy polysulphide, or b) a suitable pre-formed strip.
NOTES
1. Do not carry out work where the temperatures are below 5ºC or if the temperature of the background/base is in excess of 65ºC.
2. All materials used must be water/frost resistant
3. Ensure that all substrates are capable of supporting the chosen tile finish.
4. To achieve a bonded finish scarify the concrete surface to expose the underlying aggregate.
5. Solid bed fixing must be achieved.
6. Do not carry out work in adverse weather conditions.
7. If necessary protect patio whilst tiling is carried out and until the grout/adhesive are fully cured.
THE BAL 25 YEAR GUARANTEE
BAL products are supplied with a 25 year product guarantee.
For further details and/or copies please contact the Company’s marketing department.
TECHNICAL ADVISORY SERVICE
For free expert guidance on the use of BAL products, or any aspect of ceramic tiling contact the BAL PROFESSIONAL ENQUIRY LINE on:
Tel: 0845 600 1222
Fax: 01782 591121
Recommended Adhesive Colour Working Time Set Time
BAL Single Part Flexible 3-6mm Grey/White 5 hours 24 hours
BAL Rapidset Flexible 3-6mm Grey/White 45 minutes 3 hours
BAL PTB Flexible 3-25mm Grey/White 45 minutes 3 hours
BAL Green Screed Adhesive 3-6mm Grey 5 hours 24 hours
BAL Supercover Rapidset Flex 3-6mm Grey/White 45 minutes 3 hours
Recommended Grout Joint Width Set Time Colour
BAL Superflex Wide Joint Grout 3-20mm 24 hours Various
BAL Wide Joint Grout with BAL Admix GT1 3-12mm 24 hours Various
BAL Microcolour Wide Joint Grout with BAL Admix GT1 2-20mm 5 hours Various
NOTE
The customer must verify the suitability of any information, opinion, recommendation or advice (“information”) provided by the Company for the particular application for which any goods are intended to be used and the Company accepts no liability (whether in contract, tort or otherwise) whatsoever for any loss, damage or expense arising from the misuse of any information it supplies, nor for the use of any information in or for applications which are unsuitable or inappropriate. Building Adhesives Ltd operates a continuous research and development programme and reserves the right to alter or to update information from time to time.
BUILDING ADHESIVES LIMITED
I got a E mail back from BAL today which said;
"Most of our cement-based adhesives possessing "porcelbond technology" would be suitable but choose a flexible product for a better result for outdoors weather conditions, i.e. flexible.
For further guidance, please refer to the attached Technical Notes TN21.10."
The Technical Note was a “word” attachment to the E mail & I cant seem to find any way of linking it here, neither can find it on the BAL website so I can’t post a direct link to that either so I have just reproduced the text below;
-------------------
CONSIDERATIONS
When tiling an external area it is important to remember that the substrate must be capable of supporting the chosen finish. Therefore a solid concrete base should be chosen which should be preferably mesh-reinforced. It may be possible to fix directly to the surface of the concrete if it is sufficiently flat. Alternatively, for any minor differences, use a suitable levelling compound and, where there are larger differences, a cement/sand screed should be applied.
SURFACE PREPARATION
The sub-floor onto which it is intended to lay tiles must be sound and suitably stable for the purpose intended. The floor’s surface must be level, dry, clean and free of any dust, grease or loose material, for both interior and exterior floors.
Concrete - Any efflorescence, laitance, dirt and any other loose material must be totally removed by mechanical means only. The surface should then be washed and allowed to dry out before tiling starts. Concrete should be at least 6 weeks old before any finish is applied, unless BAL Green Screed Adhesive is to be used.
Any minor differences in level may be taken out using the tile adhesive but do not exceed the maximum recommended thickness of the adhesive. If the floor is uneven, a levelling compound, e.g. BAL ACRYBASE, should be used. For very uneven floors use a bonded modified cement/sand screed.
Cement/sand screed
To lay a bonded cement/sand screed:
• A slurry bonding coat will be required comprising of 2 parts OPC to 1 part BAL Bond by weight.
• The slurry bonding coat should be mixed to a creamy consistency and brush applied to the prepared concrete.
• Apply the mortar mix while the slurry mix is still wet.
• The mortar should be based on a 1:3 to 1:4.5 cement:sand mix where BAL Bond should be added at the rate of 10 litres per 50kg of cement using the minimum amount of water to gauge consistency.
Before laying ceramic tiles or natural stone onto a cement/sand screed, the screed should be covered and cured for 7 days followed by a further 14 days of continual air drying; a longer period may be necessary in poor drying conditions. Fresh screeds shrink during the drying process which can cause cracks to appear. As a consequence, tiles may crack if the screed is not allowed to dry out properly prior to installation.
Cutting
A good quality tile cutter may be used for vitrified or fully vitrified/porcelain tiles. However, a water-cooled diamond cutter is required for the cutting of all natural stone tiles. This process will necessitate that the tile is cleaned before use.
FIXING (see table of suitable products below)
• Make sure tiles and sub-floor are clean and dry.
• Do not fix tiles at temperatures below 5ºC.
• Mix tile adhesive, making sure that only sufficient is mixed for use; any unused material should be discarded. Do not add further liquid.
• Apply adhesive to a floor area of around 1m2 using a trowel capable of achieving a solid bed of adhesive.
• A maximum bed depth of 6mm should be applied when using a thin bed adhesive.
• If a thicker bed is required then use BAL PTB Flexible.
• Do not over spread adhesive; use only what can be tiled in 20 minutes.
• Press tiles firmly into place to achieve a solid bed of adhesive, with no voids beneath.
• Clean any surplus adhesive from the surfaces of the tiles with a clean, damp cloth as soon as possible. Cured adhesive will prove very difficult to remove.
• Clean adhesive from between joints to allow for grouting.
• Clean all tools immediately after use.
• The adhesive must be given a minimum of 24 hours to dry.
• Where necessary protect from adverse weather.
GROUTING (see table of suitable products below)
• Before grouting all adhesive must have dried properly, the drying time is usually 12-24 hours, unless a fast setting adhesive is used, then a drying time of 3 hours is normal. Thicker beds of adhesive and lower temperatures will reduce drying times.
• When the adhesive is set, mop the floor with hot water and a mild detergent to remove any surplus dust from the surface of the tile. This will prevent stains forming during the treatment.
• Make sure all joints are clean and dry.
• On rough textured or riven finish tiles, it may be necessary to use a suitable sealer before grouting is carried out.
• Remove excess sealer and leave to fully dry, before grouting.
• Grout must be pushed down firmly and all joints should be fully filled ensuring no air is trapped under the grout joints.
• It is essential that all excess grout is removed with a damp cloth or sponge.
• Leave to dry for a minimum of 24 hours.
• After grouting, ensure that the floor is perfectly clean and dry.
MOVEMENT JOINTS
Movement joints will be required and should be incorporated as per British Standard BS 5385. These joints should be a minimum of 6mm cross section. Perimeter movement joints may be filled with BAL Microseal Sealant. Dependant on trafficking, intermediate joints may need to be filled with either a) harder-wearing and more durable material, e.g. an epoxy polysulphide, or b) a suitable pre-formed strip.
NOTES
1. Do not carry out work where the temperatures are below 5ºC or if the temperature of the background/base is in excess of 65ºC.
2. All materials used must be water/frost resistant
3. Ensure that all substrates are capable of supporting the chosen tile finish.
4. To achieve a bonded finish scarify the concrete surface to expose the underlying aggregate.
5. Solid bed fixing must be achieved.
6. Do not carry out work in adverse weather conditions.
7. If necessary protect patio whilst tiling is carried out and until the grout/adhesive are fully cured.
THE BAL 25 YEAR GUARANTEE
BAL products are supplied with a 25 year product guarantee.
For further details and/or copies please contact the Company’s marketing department.
TECHNICAL ADVISORY SERVICE
For free expert guidance on the use of BAL products, or any aspect of ceramic tiling contact the BAL PROFESSIONAL ENQUIRY LINE on:
Tel: 0845 600 1222
Fax: 01782 591121
Recommended Adhesive Colour Working Time Set Time
BAL Single Part Flexible 3-6mm Grey/White 5 hours 24 hours
BAL Rapidset Flexible 3-6mm Grey/White 45 minutes 3 hours
BAL PTB Flexible 3-25mm Grey/White 45 minutes 3 hours
BAL Green Screed Adhesive 3-6mm Grey 5 hours 24 hours
BAL Supercover Rapidset Flex 3-6mm Grey/White 45 minutes 3 hours
Recommended Grout Joint Width Set Time Colour
BAL Superflex Wide Joint Grout 3-20mm 24 hours Various
BAL Wide Joint Grout with BAL Admix GT1 3-12mm 24 hours Various
BAL Microcolour Wide Joint Grout with BAL Admix GT1 2-20mm 5 hours Various
NOTE
The customer must verify the suitability of any information, opinion, recommendation or advice (“information”) provided by the Company for the particular application for which any goods are intended to be used and the Company accepts no liability (whether in contract, tort or otherwise) whatsoever for any loss, damage or expense arising from the misuse of any information it supplies, nor for the use of any information in or for applications which are unsuitable or inappropriate. Building Adhesives Ltd operates a continuous research and development programme and reserves the right to alter or to update information from time to time.
BUILDING ADHESIVES LIMITED
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