Leaks in new central heating pipework

[snowdropwoody]

Hello,
Can you please give me some advice? I had an extension built 3 years ago (lounge and hallway) and had 3 new radiators installed. Plumber put jointed copper pipe in screed. After 12 months one of the joints leaked, in the hallway cupboard, requiring flooring to be taken up, screed to be dug up etc.

In Nov last year my boiler pressure started dropping again. Long story short, another leak in his new pipework, in the lounge. Carpet ruined, wood flooring in the cupboard ruined etc, etc.

We decided to ask him to re-pipe, externally mounted, rather than have the whole lot dug up, as we said we have no confidence in any of his joints, and are not prepared to go through this again.

He came and re-piped today, looks horrible, all up the wall and above a doorway, but we asked for it that way (couldn't have gone up in the loft as the angle was too shallow, plus did not want joints in the roof space).

He has put in 26 soldered joints, and on all of them I saw him cool them with water from a spray bottle, creating lots of steam. I am not a plumber, and did not feel it my place to question his work technique. But it seemed to me that shock cooling them might make them brittle. I googled it and found lots of articles stating that you must NOT shock cool soldered joints on copper pipe as it might make the joints weak.

I am going to be over £2,000 out of pocket due to this second leak, and before I have new carpet installed, the hallway decorated, and new wood flooring put down, I need to know whether these joints will be okay, or am I running the risk of this pipework leaking as well? Where it joins the old pipework, is underground, albeit will not be screeded in, and will have an inespection hatch.

I cannot go through all this hassle and disruption a third time, and while my house is already turned upside down, if this work is now of questionable quality, I am tempted to have it ripped out and a new plumber come and re-pipe it. Am I over-reacting?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[newbuildinstaller]

sooooo

You hired a plumber that had lots of leaks....

You then hire him AGAIN to repipe it....

And you are not sure you have confidence in him....

Should have been

You hired a plumber that had lots of leaks....

You claimed on his insurance to put it right by another plumber...

You had a nice saturday night in without going on a DIY site...

 

[snowdropwoody]

sooooo

You hired a plumber that had lots of leaks....

You then hire him AGAIN to repipe it....

And you are not sure you have confidence in him....

Should have been

You hired a plumber that had lots of leaks....

You claimed on his insurance to put it right by another plumber...

You had a nice saturday night in without going on a DIY site...

Sort of but... The first leak was not detected or fixed by this bad plumber (because we never expected it to be in the new extension). It was found and fixed by a local plumber. The bad plumber was hired by the general builder who did the extension. He did pay the other plumber's bill first time round.

When this second leak occured, again, we did not expect it to be in the new extension, but in the 40 year old part of the house.

When it transpired it was in the new extension, we decided to ask the original plumber to put it right, because we did not think he would pay for someone else to fix it, without being given the chance to fix it himself AND (and this is crucial) we assumed that after TWO leaks that he would absolutely do a top job and ensure that they would not leak this time.

However, we are now worried that his fundamental, basic soldering technique is just plain wrong, and that's why we've had leaks from his work.

Are you able to answer the question please? Is shock cooling soldered joints an acceptable practice for a plumber to use, or is it unacceptable, as the various articles on Google seem to imply (3 American articles, and 1 British)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[CombustionGuy]

How long after soldering the joint did he spray water at it ?

 

[fazedup71]

if he is spraying his joints straight after soldering it will be a problem, the joint should have cooled sufficiently first, I never use a spray, just a slightly damp soldering rag

 

[newbuildinstaller]

I let the pipe cool till the solder hardens then then wet rag to speed up the time I can handle it.

Not saying its perfect but have done 10,000s of joints this way and only had a few leak (which were straight away)

The leaks in the floor sound like the copper wasnt protected from the screed OR given an space to expand/contract. No from poor soldering as that s usually an immediate leak

 

[snowdropwoody]

How long after soldering the joint did he spray water at it ?

Almost immediately.

 

[newbuildinstaller]

carp soldering/cracked solder will usually fail immediately when pressure added OR when heat hits it (when your heating comes on).

Was your copper in screed protected in any way if so how?

 

[snowdropwoody]

I let the pipe cool till the solder hardens then then wet rag to speed up the time I can handle it.

Not saying its perfect but have done 10,000s of joints this way and only had a few leak (which were straight away)

The leaks in the floor sound like the copper wasnt protected from the screed OR given an space to expand/contract. No from poor soldering as that s usually an immediate leak

The first leak was on a soldered joint, which the second plumber was able to pull apart by hand. So there was either no solder on it, or whatever had been, had come off. He did a pressure test for about half an hour when he installed the pipe, and it was fine.

We don't know where exactly the second leak was (straight pipe or a joint). what we're worried about is whether this shock cooling might weaken the soldered joints, and if that increases the risk of the solder coming apart x months down the line. I know it's impossible to predict accurately, but if there is a risk of it, because of the shock cooling, then we'd rather just rip it out and get another plumber to come and re-pipe (preferably using crimp fittings instead of soldering).

 

[snowdropwoody]

carp soldering/cracked solder will usually fail immediately when pressure added OR when heat hits it (when your heating comes on).

Was your copper in screed protected in any way if so how?

Thanks, that makes us feel a bit better (as the stuff done today was pressure tested for about half an hour, and didn't leak, and hasn't leaked yet, and heating is on).

Pipe in the screed was wrapped in hessian cloth for about half the length of the pipe, and foam for the rest.

 

[newbuildinstaller]

I let the pipe cool till the solder hardens then then wet rag to speed up the time I can handle it.

Not saying its perfect but have done 10,000s of joints this way and only had a few leak (which were straight away)

The leaks in the floor sound like the copper wasnt protected from the screed OR given an space to expand/contract. No from poor soldering as that s usually an immediate leak

The first leak was on a soldered joint, which the second plumber was able to pull apart by hand. So there was either no solder on it, or whatever had been, had come off. He did a pressure test for about half an hour when he installed the pipe, and it was fine.

We don't know where exactly the second leak was (straight pipe or a joint). what we're worried about is whether this shock cooling might weaken the soldered joints, and if that increases the risk of the solder coming apart x months down the line. I know it's impossible to predict accurately, but if there is a risk of it, because of the shock cooling, then we'd rather just rip it out and get another plumber to come and re-pipe (preferably using crimp fittings instead of soldering).

There are soldered pipes kicking about that are 70years + years old that have never leaked! If done propertly they WILL NEVER LEAK.

You want to spend DOUBLE the price for crimp fittings that rely on ONE rubber seal!!???

WERE THE FLOOR PIPES PROTECTED!!!!!

 

[snowdropwoody]

I let the pipe cool till the solder hardens then then wet rag to speed up the time I can handle it.

Not saying its perfect but have done 10,000s of joints this way and only had a few leak (which were straight away)

The leaks in the floor sound like the copper wasnt protected from the screed OR given an space to expand/contract. No from poor soldering as that s usually an immediate leak

The first leak was on a soldered joint, which the second plumber was able to pull apart by hand. So there was either no solder on it, or whatever had been, had come off. He did a pressure test for about half an hour when he installed the pipe, and it was fine.

We don't know where exactly the second leak was (straight pipe or a joint). what we're worried about is whether this shock cooling might weaken the soldered joints, and if that increases the risk of the solder coming apart x months down the line. I know it's impossible to predict accurately, but if there is a risk of it, because of the shock cooling, then we'd rather just rip it out and get another plumber to come and re-pipe (preferably using crimp fittings instead of soldering).

There are soldered pipes kicking about that are 70years + years old that have never leaked! If done propertly they WILL NEVER LEAK.

You want to spend DOUBLE the price for crimp fittings that rely on ONE rubber seal!!???

WERE THE FLOOR PIPES PROTECTED!!!!!

This baffles me. It doesn't matter a toss what fittings cost, plumbers just pass the cost on to us, the customer. We customers have zero say in what fittings a plumber uses, or how much they cost.

And, to be honest, if press fittings cost an extra £100 I wouldn't have cared less. He charged £560 to pipe and fit 3 radiators (he did not supply the radiators, just the pipe and fittings). The leaks have cost us well over £2,000, but even that is irrelevant compared to the stress (of having a leak and not knowing where, and having to get thermal imaging tests done to locate it), having the house turned upside down etc, etc.

What is really insulting is the fact that, irrespective of what type of fitting is used, plumbers should NOT put ANY joints in buried screed where leaks require the entire floor to be destroyed in order to fix them. It's bloody ridiculous in this day and age. Why not use copper tube encased in hard PVC on a 25 metre coil, and lay that unjointed in the screed, as they do on the Continent? Or use PEX pipe in pipe?

If you plumbers believe that customers care about saving a couple of pounds per fitting then you're dead wrong. We don't CARE how much fittings cost, we just want pipework that doesn't leak, and if it does, can be detected and hopefully repaired without destroying a floor.

 

[newbuildinstaller]

did you read my post?

SOLDERED PIPES ARE THE MOST PERMANENT AND RELIABLE AND TIME PROVEN METHOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

crimp fitting rely on ONE RUBBER SEAL how long is the seal guaranteed for?

WERE THE PIPES PROTECTED IN THE FLOOR!!!!

 

[newbuildinstaller]

And yes you do have a choice in what fittings are used...

When you ask for quotes you provide a specification. If you didnt then its dealers choice

 

[newbuildinstaller]

Guess Ill never know if those pipes were protected