Lintel above french doors problems

[SteAppo]

Hi all, hope your are all well!

Im having a bit of a nightmare at the moment and im after a bit of friendly advice so thought id post a post. Long story short... i've hit some bad luck which just as things began looking better, may have today got alot worse tonight. I had an escape of water in my house, destroying 70% of the rooms. i then had a flat roof leak ruining the only standing ceiling in the house. then tonight as i was removing some skirting boards ready for skimming, i noticed a lintel above my french doors looks broken.... its this last problem i am hoping you can help with.

I had french doors fitted where i once had a patio door approx Feb this year. I noticed the doors were sticking a bit over recent month but haven't got round to ringing the window company or taking a closer look. Tonight when i was clearing the old skirting from the house i took a closer look and noticed the row of bricks above the french doors have significant movement when pressure is put on the french doors i.e. i am shutting them or leaning on the frame.

I noticed a lintel, with a break in the middle. the lintel also only just runs the width of the doors - is this right? i am assuming it should run wider for support (i'm not a builder though so could be very wrong).

Ive posted a video on youtube which can be found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5b5vfWKJOQ

any advice on extent of problem or costs of fixing. I know we should talk about prices, but wondering am i looking at hundreds? any advice/support or counselling welcome

i've call a builder tonight who is coming to look at this on Monday.

 

[alittlerespect]

Hi

You should have a minimum bearing at each end of the lintel of 100mm (4" in old currency!). It is not a straight forward job to install a lintel over a wide opening and this should be left to a professional builder!

The fact the lintel is broken makes it useless, and it will need to be replaced!

Regards

 

[nottsrob184]

Hi.
I'm no expert neither but know a bit about this.
You are right the lintel should sit either side of the window by about 150mm (ish).
It looks like its not doing that.
As its a flat roof, i suggest the roof is supported on 6x2's from ground level either side of the window and then remove the soldier bricks to have a good look at the lintel. You may get away with installing a wooden support lintel to support the weight of the roof (at least as a tempory measure)...i am not sure what a builder would charge but i would say 1 days labour and the cost of lintel / materials which should be no more than £300 total.
Like i said i'm no expert but i think you can do this yourself for about £50 - £80.
Good luck.

 

[SteAppo]

Hi both. thanks very much for your replies, youve made me feel much more reasurred that it is fixable and not going to cost thousands

I dont mind trying most tasks myself as quite enjoy advanced DIY... however i think ill leave this one to a builder... i was quite worries when i seen bricks moving as a shut the patio door.

On the inside of the french door opening there seems to be a large wooden beam (railway sleeper style). Ill take some pic tomorrow and post if it would help.

As i say, builder due on Monday so will just tell the plasterers who are working on the house at the moment to aviod using the french doors.

Out of interest, do you think this could be caused by the window company? Or more moving from aliminium patio style doors to french doors has probably just exposed a historic problem and probably made it worse due to no constant central support to the opening?

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Who built the extension? They want shooting! I can't believe any self respecting builder would do that. The lintel is doing nothing other than giving something to rest the soldier course and roof joists on. I reckon the builder bought the lintel, found it was too short and thought "What the hell; I'll be long gone before anyone notices!"

If the patio door was an aluminium profile then it was probably strong enough to carry the load. The UPVC frame isn't, especially as it's not reinforced along the top.

Also, how did the installers fit the new door without the lintel dropping to the floor? Looking at the You Tube footage again I think the whole soldier course has dropped about an inch. The soldier course should run through with the top two courses.

Personally I don't think the door installers should have even begun the job without getting a lintel of the correct length installed.

The original builder was a cowboy and unfortunately you got another cowboy to fit your double glazing...

However, I agree with Nottsrob. As it's only single storey replacing shouldn't be too difficult. Support the roof with a couple of acrows or timbers and another timber across the top as a bearer. Remove the existing lintel and a couple of bricks either side. I'd bear the lintel onto the bed joint second course down, then fill the gap with some insulation and cover with a new bit of UPVC. Then ensure the roof joists are securely resupported and redo the soldier course.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Deleted

 

[theoldun]

Would say brickwork is 15/20 years old and I do not think that there is any lintel above frame.
Reason. (1) Soldier course is split courses, therefore no bearing. (2) No bearing, no lintel. (3) Steel lintels never project more than brickwork. (4) Never known a steel lintel to crack not even catnics CNZs. I think that the black band that you can see is the edge of old cavity tray.
It is quite possible that the old patio doors were not original, There may have been a wooden frame previously and brickwork was built across top of frame. The ally patio doors may have had timber surround and brickwork was built across this.
So many window fitters sail so close to the wind in taking these old frames out and replacing with new. They are just lucky that a lot more of these unsupported openings do not fall in on them when fitting new frames.
On the right hand side, there are two holes drilled in bed joint. I reckon someone, possibly window fitters were looking for lintel. If they knew there was not a lintel, they should have advised you before fitting.
If ceiling joist running side to side no need to prop. If running front to back, throw couple of acrows, head and sole plate in.
Take soldier course and course above out carefully and set aside.
Cut bearing for lintel, course above frame.
Bearing height looks about 25mm above frame, measure depth of frame and laminate length of UVPC on to length of 25x? timber and plant on head of frame.
Check lintel length required and bed either catnic CNZ96C or CNZ97C depending on length required. Look in catnic catalogue
Spend a bit of time and clean all soldiers up and cut down to 150mm deep. Run over as half brick soldier. Replace top course. Using existing bricks, if it is done right, you will never know it has been done.
Cost. Lintel £130.00. Sand cement £7.00. Labour decent bricklayer and I mean decent bricklayer cash in hand £130 to £150.00. May be cheaper up your way.
Would suggest you not do it yourself. Running half brick soldier and squeezing one in above is not easiest job in the world. You have to run them all together. Sorry post is so long.
oldun

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Old Un, I think you're right. Had second thoughts and almost said something similar in post that I deleted.

Then I couldn't work out how door fitters managed to get door in without losing the masonry above.
I guess the soldier course would have cracked in the middle as soon as the old door was removed and gone into compression at the top, giving just enough time to slip in the new door before it all came crashing down.

Then they scarpered and crossed their fingers and toes...

I think if this is the case it's their responsibility to make good the brickwork; they never should have installed a UPVC door without installing a lintel above. As you said, they should have advised and given a price on the extra work.

I'd be calling them and demanding they return and make good.

Related to this, I recently fitted a new 1.8m wide UPVC French window to replace a 30 year old aluminium patio door. My walls are 9" brick. I could see there was no external lintel and assumed timber frame was taking the load. However, I could see a vertical crack in the masonry running from the centre of the frame to the window above. I removed a piece of hardwood and amazingly there was a 50mm gap between the frame and the masonry...so the entire load was being taken by the internal timber lintel...not very successfully either judging by the crack! Lucky it was a solid wall!

Anyway, I did things properly and installed a beam before installing the French windows.

 

[SteAppo]

Hi all

Thanks again for you replies. Just thought I would update you, I had a builder look who pretty much confirmed everything you guys said, he said he would give me a quote but never called back. In the meantime I rang the window company and they came and inspected and acknowledged they should not of fitted the doors without a lintel being put in first. They have said they will rectify the problem without profit and have gone away to work up a quote. I'll let you know what they come back with.

Thanks again for help and advice.

Ste