Loft Conversion - Buying a house in need of...

[CJL1]

Good morning Ladies and Gents.

We're in a slight pickle at the moment, and was looking for some advice.
We currently live in a 3 storey new build, we bought 5 years a go. We have 3 bedrooms upstairs, and a guest room/office downstairs.
We currently have 1 child, and would like at some point to look at having another child, so 3 bedrooms, whilst isn't a necessity, it is something we are looking to have.
Whilst we live comfortably, we would like to look at cutting down are mortgage payments (different topic, so won't discuss on here).

We have decided on a village we would like to move to, where we had previously rented before buying a house.
There are plentiful 2 bedroom victorian terrace houses, with adequate living space downstairs. 2 bedrooms are also good for now.
Now quite a few of these houses in the village have 'loft/attic rooms' - I of course debate whether you could use the word 'room' but thats by the by.
So, this week, we had a look around a terraced house which includes the first floor accommodation across the walkway under the house.
This has also has a current loft/attic room.

Having a look at the loft/attic room in more detail, it shows already constructed stairs (and door) off the first floor landing leading up to the attic room. The room itself also has a velux window, carpet, but can't remember the ceiling construction (although i'm sure i'd remember if it was still eaves).
I think there is electricity, but can't be certain (there was a smoke alarm, but this could be battery operated).
Also, about 1/4 of the attic has been separated with a partition and door as separate storage.
Now, I know for a fact that it is not built to building regulations (it was done by the owner before the current one and doesn't have any information on this), and speaking to the local district council, none were submitted. In fact, the local council have said that they may have the power to ask for this to be de-constructed even if it is only used as a storage space.
Luckily, a few doors down, there is a builder who can construct a loft conversion to room regulations at a rough price of £15-20k - seems about right scouting the forums.

However, a few questions have come up:

1. If the alterations were made at a specific date before regulations, will new regulations apply?
2. Having what looks like a door and permanent stairs seems like it might have been there in the first place. Could this be the case?
3. If work has been done on an attic conversion, is the liklihood that conforming to Building Regs might mean having to start from scratch again?
4. Has anyone ever come across a conversion that has been done partially or wholly to building regs, but not actually been sent for approval (a long shot I know)?
5. Is it worth doing an ensuite at the same time?

The problem is, by the time you add on the mortgage of the new house, and then the cost of £15-20k (over 5 years) the cost is actually not that far from our current mortgage.

Any advise would be extremely appreciated.

Many Thanks.

Chris

 

[CJL1]

Hi.

A news twist to this.
We've just visited the house again with a builder.
OK. So we've been quoted £15-20k for the conversion to building regs, but we found the following:

1. The staircase looks original to the building.
2 The skirting boards look original to the building
3. Underneath the current carpet is proper solid wood flooring

If we find out this room was part of the original house, and we don't do any changes, would this need to comply with building regs?

 

[SteNova]

If we find out this room was part of the original house, and we don't do any changes, would this need to comply with building regs?

it's all got to depend on when it was built?

 

[CJL1]

If we find out this room was part of the original house, and we don't do any changes, would this need to comply with building regs?

it's all got to depend on when it was built?

Hi SteNova.

The house itself is Victorian era, so the 'loft' would be from that era if original.

Is there a cut off date, even if it was amended, when building regs would not need to comply?

Don't get me wrong, even if we didn't need building regs, we would still invest in to getting things improved from a safety point of view (fire etc), check electrics, heating etc, but it may mean we can use it, safely, whilst we do the work in steps.

Thanks.

Chris

 

[CJL1]

Well...building folk are coming round to have a look.
To be fair, they have been extremel helpful.

Hopefully by next week we should know if its original, pre-1985 or is not right.

 

[DevilDamo]

This thread may have been better in the Building Regulations and Planning Permission section...

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=36

Hey ho, nevermind

can't remember the ceiling construction (although i'm sure i'd remember if it was still eaves).

What has the eaves got to do with the ceiling construction

1. If the alterations were made at a specific date before regulations, will new regulations apply?

That's not really the question. The question would be... "Are the works too old for Building Control to take enforcement action?" Or... "Would the works come under the new regulations?"

Have a read here...

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/Planning/BuildingRegulations/DG_4001372

Under Section 35, enforcement action needs to be taken within two years after the date of completion of the building work, providing you can prove when the works were completed. Under Section 36, a notice needs to be served within the first twelve months after the date of completion of the building work.

As for the old/new regulations. If an application was deposited with building control x amount of years ago, then providing the works did start (didn't need to finish), then the works will have to comply with those regulations at the time. Any new works will have to comply with the new/current regulations.

2. Having what looks like a door and permanent stairs seems like it might have been there in the first place. Could this be the case?

Not necessarily. However, having a permanent/fixed staircase implies the loft space is used as a habitable room and not that for storage, which would require building regulations. If that stair was to be replaced with a pull down ladder (for example), then you could argue the room(s) are only for storage purposes. You wouldn't "normally" have a velux window in a storage area but that's not as essential as the staircase.

3. If work has been done on an attic conversion, is the liklihood that conforming to Building Regs might mean having to start from scratch again?

No, not at all. If the works were to be passed officially by building control, then they would ask you to expose certain elements of the work so they can be satisfied regulations have been complied with. However, it appears you will be presented with a list of outstanding items that need to be addressed before the works can be officially signed off. Sometimes it may be more cost effective to start again, but it would be best to see what building control say and then decide which way to proceed.

4. Has anyone ever come across a conversion that has been done partially or wholly to building regs, but not actually been sent for approval (a long shot I know)?

I personally haven't as I'm an Architectural Technician so either I'd get involved from the beginning or not at all. Believe it or not, there are loft conversion companies that will carry out loft alterations that do not comply to building regulations. That's all very well as the costs will be considerably cheaper, but can you put a price on a persons life? No. So, you'd get it done properly or not at all... in my opinion.

5. Is it worth doing an ensuite at the same time?

Yes. If you're looking at going down the building regulation route, then get it all done at the same time because if you leave the en-suite to a later date, then you will need to submit another application for the installation of an en-suite. One thing on en-suites, just make sure you have enough headroom... especially over baths/showers (i.e. 150mm shower tray, 1800mm person = min. 1950mm).

I think I've covered everything. Let me know if you'd like to know anything else. Also, did the loft conversion works raise any suspicions with regards to planning permission?

 

[CJL1]

Hi DevilDamo.

Thanks so much for your reponse.
As you can tell, i'm both new to the forum and doing anything in the world of home improvements lol
Would agree that reading your post, and speaking more to the council, that perhaps my questions weren't worded correctly - but I plead ignorance m'lord

Interesting your last point about planning permission, but may be reading it wrong, so i'll answer in both ways.
Planning permission isn't needed for the loft conversaion (no dormer etc). We've checked out the local area, conservation area etc (sits about 50m outside of this) and also with a friend who's an architecht.
But, the other answer I would give is, when speaking to the council about coming round to look, they did say they had it on their list to look at anyway due 'being informed' that there was work carried out with out any building regs...ooops.
Still, from my side, although I feel bad, I do need to know the situation before selling up our house to buy one that's going to end up costing us more than we budgeted for in terms of improvements etc.
I'm just glad we've uncovered this now, then after the deal has been done.
At least the council will be able to say yey or nay to the work, but at the end of the day, and 100% agree with you, we would still need to do the work to comply with H+S/building regs.

We were told that if the staircase/loft was original to the house or pre-1985, then they couldn't enforce us to change it or enforce us not to use it as a room.
Even though we would get the work done, we just need to know before purchasing (i'm just envising buying the house, being enforced to change it back to a loft, then having to fork out the cost to make it habitable - so doubling our costs (or so to speak).

Thanks also for all your other points. Makes a lot of sense, and appreciate the time you took to reply to that.

Regards.

Chris

 

[DevilDamo]

Planning permission isn't needed for the loft conversaion (no dormer etc). We've checked out the local area, conservation area etc (sits about 50m outside of this) and also with a friend who's an architecht.

The PD (Permitted Development) rules changed on 1st October 2008 and not "all" loft conversions are immune from planning permission. Have a read here...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonloftconversion/

However, as it seems the works were done x number of years ago, it's highly unlikely the planning department would or can take any enforcement action. Nowadays, if a loft conversion does not require a formal planning application and it can be done under permitted development, then applicants are usually advised to obtain a Certificate of Lawfulness, which will be an "official" document from the council confirming the works will fall within PD.

We were told that if the staircase/loft was original to the house or pre-1985, then they couldn't enforce us to change it or enforce us not to use it as a room.

Agreed. If if was that long ago... then it's immune from planning/building regulations (as far as I'm aware).

 

[jeds]

If the loft has sat there as-is for more than 12 months then it is immune from the local authority enforcement procedure and there's nowt they can do about it. Well, they could try to get an injunction but that won't happen so forget it.

However, it still isn't a habitable space and you would need building regulations to properly convert it. The regulations would be applied to current standards.

Assuming the existing basic structure and staircase are OK, the next big ones are thermal insulation, fire protection and means of escape.

Don't be tempted to let your kid/s sleep in the room without adequate fire and escape. It just isn't worth it.

 

[CJL1]

Thanks John.

I do agree, 100%, regarding converting the loft correctly before making it habitable. Its the one thing we said from the start...well, once we found out why it wasn't being sold as a bedroom and then looking in to why.
Amazing really though. If we hadn't looked in to it, the estate agent wouldn't have said a dickie-bird - but then again, it isn't advertised as a bedroom.

Cheers.

Chris

 

[jeds]

There's two ways to look at it Chris. You could immediately add value by converting what is basically allready there and adding a bedroom. Or you could ask why such an obvious thing to do hasn't allready been done?

It could be the vendors just couldn't be assed - not everybody wants the hassle or disruption. Or maybe they just couldn't afford it. On the other hand they may have looked into it and found a problem that isn't obvious.

I'd have a good talk with them if I were you and see if I could find out why they've never considered it.

 

[CJL1]

Hi John.

The difficulty is that the current owner never did anything, and also didn't get anything from the previous owner about what was done (or anything going further back down the chain to when it was done).
So we are kind of left with a blank canvas as such, and having to do the research ourselves.

From my understanding, the current property was rented out prior to going on the market, and there hasnt been a viewing for at least 3 months or an offer in all the time it has ben on the market.

I guess there are certain things you can look at, as we've done, to take an educated guess. Now we know about building regs for loft conversions through our own research, help from a local builder, friend and the council, we now know what traps to not fall in to. It doesn't look likes its been done very well, so I would think it was done, perhaps, as a bit of a DIY job (in terms of walling, velux window, partition and storage etc).
Thanks to the builder, we now know that the skirting might need replacing around the house, and when I have a look next week, the electrics might need updating. Also, the boiler is old, so that might need upgrading, along with changing the plumbing to get a radiator in.
So when we add the above up, plus the extension of the kitchen, adding on the cost of the house, and comparing it with similar types of houses on the market, its looking less and less favourable.

But, will wait and see what the council say, but now thinking this might be the nail in the coffin.

Cheers.

Chris

 

[CJL1]

Change of plan...sorry folks.

We've pulling our interest from the house.
It doesn't add up financially (especially speaking to a mortgage advisor today), short term and long term.
Too many concerns about it all, and just have these feeling a can of worms has opened.

Ah well...we found another one that only needs upgrading of internal decor, rather than huge amounts of building work.

Thanks everyone for your advise...its helped make our decision easier.

Regards.

Chris