Low pressure on electric shower in flat

[diyplumber1980]

Hi guys, was hoping for some expert advice. Got called out today by a mate after an electrician appears to have bodged a job up.

The sparky decided to fit a Triton Madrid 2 electric shower on the third floor of the flat. He tee'd off from the cold pipe going to the basin. Ran new wiring through the loft and connected an electric shower.

However when you turn on the shower, there is no pressure, the water dribbles out and does not get hot. Surprisingly, he changed the shower 3 times assuming fault was with shower, and each time they get the exact same problem.

They also have a shower mixer bath tap, and the pressure there is also very low, the water just dribbles out. There is also very little pressure to the basin taps or from the ballvalve from the toilet cistern as it fills. Ive had a look around the flat and I can't figure out how its been set up.

It has a vaillant boiler turbomax plus 824e, but it also has a very large cold water storage cistern in the kitchen, lietrally the size of 3 large cisterns joined together. I have attached pictures to this post. However there is no hot water cylinder, and no feed and expansion tank.

However due to the pressure being so low, i'm assuming its not a cambi running of the mains but some kind of open vented system?

Does anyone have any idea what could be the problem? and what options they may have so they can have a properly functioning shower? any help would be much apprciated.

Untitled

• diyplumber1980
• 1 Oct 2013
• 1

Untitled

• diyplumber1980
• 1 Oct 2013
• 1

Untitled

• diyplumber1980
• 1 Oct 2013
• 1

 

[Newboy]

What are the two outlets from the tank going to?

Is the tank being used just to allow for a low flow/pressure from the main - ie to allow sufficient supply for the flat with a very slow refill.

What's the flow/pressure like on hot taps?

The only logical solution is a pump arrangement - not sure how you're going to square that with the boiler & shower though!

 

[diyplumber1980]

Thanks for reply Newboy

The pipes from cistern, the one on left is capped off at the bottom, the middle and one on right go down through the floor, but as entire flat it tiled, i dont know for sure where they are going. They may be going to the two flats downstairs. The bathroom n kitchen sink is on the opposite side of flat to the water cistern. The cistern does seem very slow filling. I turned on 3 cold taps, bath, basin, and sink for ten mins and the water level in cistern did not appear to drop, so it may not be supplying the top flat.

The hot water flow is very low too. It runs warm for a minute, then runs cold. The bath has a shower mixer tap, and the water from that shower is literally a trickle. When u have the lever down, it flows out a little better from spout. Could the boiler heat exchanger be faulty? I noticed a couole of spare parts on top of boiler, looks like diverter mechanism or something, not sure, so must have played up in past.

Would a thermostatic mixer bar shower work?

 

[diyplumber1980]

Would this be any good, a bath shower mixer that works on 0.2 bar?

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=200968929177

 

[Fluffster]

Are you a plumber by trade or as in your title a diy plumber. I only ask to get your level of competency and to advise you accordingly.

The boiler is a combination boiler, it even says so on the panel

The mixer taps you linked will still only dribble out if the flow and pressure are poor.

Since it is a combi boiler have you checked the pressure and flow rates at the nearest outlet to the boiler, what is the mains pressure at the kitchen sink.

The cold water storage tank is commonly called a coffin tank for obvious reasons, it can fit through loft hatches easily too.

Pete

 

[Madrab]

Few questions on this one....
Have you checked the mains stop cock and whether that is opened fully?
Is this a remote location?
Have the owners mentioned whether they have always had poor water pressure?

 

[diyplumber1980]

Are you a plumber by trade or as in your title a diy plumber. I only ask to get your level of competency and to advise you accordingly.

The boiler is a combination boiler, it even says so on the panel

The mixer taps you linked will still only dribble out if the flow and pressure are poor.

Since it is a combi boiler have you checked the pressure and flow rates at the nearest outlet to the boiler, what is the mains pressure at the kitchen sink.

The cold water storage tank is commonly called a coffin tank for obvious reasons, it can fit through loft hatches easily too.

Pete

Hi Pete, at the moment im a diyplumber, however i recently completed my level 2 plumbing course at college. However as im starting to seek experience, im finding things i did not cover in much depth.

The pressure at the sink seemed ok, not great, but not too bad either. The hot water pressure seemed lower but wasnt too bad. I may pop round again with a weir gauge to check flow rates at all taps.

The mains stop tap was apoarently ok according to other plumber, but as its in one of the other flats downstairs, i cudnt gain access to check. Therre is a stop tap in the kitchen, thats fully opened.

 

[Fluffster]

A few more things to check would be the cold inlet valve on the combi. They may also have a flow rate valve from memory, a knurled plastic headed valve accesed from under the boiler.

You need to actually check the pressure as ok, not great and not too bad can mean so many different things to different people.

If the cwst is feeding the cold outlets then 15mm pipework is too small.

As Madrab asked has the pressure always been poor? that cwst and pipe work looks pretty recent.

Pete

 

[jarrovian]

Oh the joys of multi occupancy dwellings!
let's go through it-
There is low pressure on both hot and cold supply.
You have no chance of running the shower described unless you have good pressure.
Why is the pressure low?
some possibilities
The supply is inadequate -is the cold water pressure greater in the kitchen than the bathroom? This could indicate that the cold water in the bathroom is tank fed AND SHOULD NOT BE USED AS DRINKING WATER (there should be warning notices)
How old is the property? some Victorian houses have mains supply as narrow as 3/8" which is not up to modern requirements.
Have isolator valves been fitted on the supply pipe? some of these valves are very restrictive and do not allow full bore flow.
Is the mains water coming directly to your flat or is it meandering throughout the building?
That's probably enough for now, but there are many other possibilities.
Let me know how you get on. Good luck!

 

[diyplumber1980]

A few more things to check would be the cold inlet valve on the combi. They may also have a flow rate valve from memory, a knurled plastic headed valve accesed from under the boiler.

You need to actually check the pressure as ok, not great and not too bad can mean so many different things to different people.

If the cwst is feeding the cold outlets then 15mm pipework is too small.

As Madrab asked has the pressure always been poor? that cwst and pipe work looks pretty recent.

Pete

Thanks again Pete, i'l pop back round and check for the flow rate valve, i'l take some pics also and post them.

The landlord says that flat has always had a prolem with low pressure.

 

[diyplumber1980]

Oh the joys of multi occupancy dwellings!
let's go through it-
There is low pressure on both hot and cold supply.
You have no chance of running the shower described unless you have good pressure.
Why is the pressure low?
some possibilities
The supply is inadequate -is the cold water pressure greater in the kitchen than the bathroom? This could indicate that the cold water in the bathroom is tank fed AND SHOULD NOT BE USED AS DRINKING WATER (there should be warning notices)
How old is the property? some Victorian houses have mains supply as narrow as 3/8" which is not up to modern requirements.
Have isolator valves been fitted on the supply pipe? some of these valves are very restrictive and do not allow full bore flow.
Is the mains water coming directly to your flat or is it meandering throughout the building?
That's probably enough for now, but there are many other possibilities.
Let me know how you get on. Good luck!

lol oh dear looks like this property is best left alone!

The property looks old, its in central birmingham and has celler, victorian style look on the outside.

Yes the pressure in kitchen is greater then bathroom. The pipes do not appear to run from the kitchen to the bathroom (Unless they are under the floor) so i'm guessing they have a different supply.

As this flat is top floor, i'm guessing its running to all the other properties then to this one. there were no isolation valves on pipes.

 

[jarrovian]

Well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only certainty is the pressure to the flat is far too low-you need to get all the tenants in the building to tell you what the mains pressure is in their flat, the problem most likely lies outside "your" flat.
If they are all ok the most likely suspect is your stopcock-faulty washer,broken spindle debris build up etc.
A polite note through each letterbox should do the trick unless the tenant is a violent drug addict,in which case you'll probably need a different forum! (don't forget to record the confrontation for later uploading to u tube)
Good luck.

 

[Madrab]

Do a pressure check, then flow rate on the kitchen cold then in the bathroom. Compare them.
If the bathroom is lower then it is probably gravity fed from that tank and if so then the spark did the wrong thing feeding the electric shower off of a tank fed cold distribution pipe. I take it there is no attic space above and this could be a loft conversion given the tank's in the kitchen?
Simply run a 22mm cold feed from the kitchen mains into the bathroom to feed the cold outlets. Need to also check what is feeding the boiler, of course it should be mains fed but wouldn't be the 1st time I've seen where it's been connected to a tank by mistake.
You could make this into quite a tidy job for yourself and set it up correctly for them.
Write out a plan of works and estimate to sort it out would be my suggestion.

 

[diyplumber1980]

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice. Im considering fitting a cold wayer cistern in loft as i believe i have enough room in loft to have a storage cistern 1.5 meters above the showerhead. What im looking to find out is what size cistern would i need, and is there a shower make and model anyone could recommend? Would this cistern be sufficient to feed a shower?

 

[steve32]

You need to check the shower is connected to a water mains supply.
I suspect the shower may be connected to a low pressure supply fed from the roof tank.
If it is connected to a tank fed supply you could change the shower for one that incorporates a pump.