Major wiring work on a house purchase, questions.

[plugwash]

I'm in the process of buying a bungalow where the electrics need attention. Most circuits have no RCD protection. The main CU is a brown wylex standard. There is also a modern chint 2 way CU which supplies the recently adapted bathroom (big breaker for the shower, small breaker for the light and fan). If I succed in buying the house I intend to sort the wiring out myself. Since I may move on in the not too distant future I want to make sure I have a proper completion cert for the wiring work. The house is in the stockport area.

From inspection and talking to the owner I belive the installation has grown over the years. All sockets I found were 13A sockets of various vintages. One lightswitch however looked to be much older.

"sorting out" is likely to include replacing the two existing CUs with a single new one, replacing any rubber wiring, replacing any wiring with missing earths, replacing any other substandard wiring, moving sockets off the skirting board, adding more sockets to bring the toal up to modern expectations etc.

Now for the questions.

Am I right in thinking that a black sheath usually indicates rubber cable which should be replaced while a grey or white sheath indicates plastic cable which (provided it passes an insulation test and a vistual inspection) can be retained? Is there a better way to identify cable insulation materials than the color of the sheath?

The "building notice for electrical work" says I can fill-out and sign the design and construction parts of the EIC myself but I need to get a registered electrican to do the inspection and testing part. Are they legally in the right there? if not has anyone had any luck fighting them? how much should I expect to pay an Electrican for inspection and testing? and can anyone recommend one?

The "building notice for electrical work" requires me to choose "modifications to existing circuits" and/or "new circuits" for each part of the house. Where should I draw the line between the two? Should I count moving stuff to a new CU as "new circuits"? what about splitting a circuit in two? Is there any penaly for getting this bit wrong?

Finally a cost estimate is required. Given I plan to DIY this should I just include materials costs or do I have to include something for the value of my time?

 

[flyingsparks]

If you intend to do that much work like moving sockets off skirting etc I would be inclined to do a full rewire straight away. Now she time to do it.

 

[Jackrae]

Based on your question re identification of wiring by the colour of the sheathing I would respectfully enquire if you have the knowledge to "design" a system. There's a lot more to it that routing wires from A to B

 

[securespark]

Hi plug

From what you say, it does sound like you may as well start afresh with a new installation. What vintage is the bungalow? And what area or estate - I know Stockport well!

If the bungalow was built pre-'66, it is very likely to have rubber cable and/ or no cpc's in the lighting. Given this and the fact it needs a new CU and various sockets adding or moving, I think you would be much better off with a complete rewire.

Black cable is nearly always rubber, white used to be sold by the DIY sheds in the 80's and 90's.

When you say "split" a circuit, do you mean a ring final to a radial?

 

[plugwash]

Hi plug

From what you say, it does sound like you may as well start afresh with a new installation. What vintage is the bungalow? And what area or estate - I know Stockport well!

We are pretty sure it's 1930s, it's in Cheadle Hulme near the station.

Given this and the fact it needs a new CU and various sockets adding or moving, I think you would be much better off with a complete rewire.

That may well be the conclusion but I'd still like to properly understand my options before proceeding.

Black cable is nearly always rubber,

Thanks for confirming.

white used to be sold by the DIY sheds in the 80's and 90's.

Right.

If a cable is white or grey sheathed, of appropriate size, looks like T&E (i.e. is a flat cable with a red and black core at the sides and a bare core on the middle) and passes an IR test by a wide margin is it reasonable to assume it's safe to keep.

When you say "split" a circuit, do you mean a ring final to a radial?

What I mean generally is bits of wiring that used to be part of the same circuit becoming parts of two seperate circuits.

It's difficult to be more specific than that before I've made a map of the wiring.

 

[Adam_151]

Are you aware that there might be a way to avoid dealing with LABC at all? A few years ago rules were changed and contractors can now be registered as "third party verifiers" it actually took a while for any such schemes to appear after the legal framework was in place. NAPIT and STROMA register third party verifiers. The NIC and ECA decided not to.

What it actually means is you find a sparky who is registered for 3PV before starting, discuss what you want to do, they will come back at stages to look at first fix and then will come back and test at the end and notify it through the 3PV scheme.

To add to the information on cable insulation. I have seen cable that had VIR insulated cores with a PVC over sheath it would have been from the early 60s. So don't assume anything, also 1960s PVC was different from modern stuff (was it actually pvc??) the insulation on the cores was a lot shinier and also was prone to leaching out the plasticiser in a green liquid.

White sheath on pre-2004 cable was either from a DIY shed, or from down south (go down to the south coast and it is normal to see it used extenivly on professional work (so sourced through wholesaler), rather than DIY additions

Post 2004. White is low smoke and fume and grey is normal PVC

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The "building notice for electrical work" says I can fill-out and sign the design and construction parts of the EIC myself

Really?

Your council says that you can certify that your design and construction work complies with BS 7671 without asking you for any proof that you are qualified to make such an assertion, and that your certification can be relied upon?

but I need to get a registered electrican to do the inspection and testing part.

Good luck with that.

It is a very common belief amongst electricians that when they certify that their inspection and testing was done in compliance with BS 7671 they are actually certifying that the design and construction done by their predecessor(s) was compliant.

Are they legally in the right there?

They have to assure themselves that the work complies with the Building Regulations, and if when you applied for approval you told them that the way you'd comply with Part P would be compliance with BS 7671, given that they can't afford to stop vulnerable old people starving to death, and can't afford to stop sickos from torturing their children to death, how much expense do you think is legally justified in verifying the competence and qualifications of non-registered electricians?

if not has anyone had any luck fighting them? how much should I expect to pay an Electrican for inspection and testing? and can anyone recommend one?

If you are genuinely qualified to declare that your design and construction work complies with BS 7671, why aren't you equally OK to say that your testing of it does?

The "building notice for electrical work" requires me to choose "modifications to existing circuits" and/or "new circuits" for each part of the house.

Why?

What does it matter?

What do you have to not be able to do when modifying circuits and certifying compliance with BS 7671 which you would have to be able to do when creating new circuits?

Where should I draw the line between the two?

Why?

What does it matter?

Should I count moving stuff to a new CU as "new circuits"?

Without a shred of doubt.

what about splitting a circuit in two?

Ditto. If one circuit becomes two then that's one new circuit.

Is there any penaly for getting this bit wrong?

BC refusing to give you a completion certificate?

Seriously - if you go doing things without having explicitly nailed it down with BC and got their agreement that it will be OK you are risking major heartache.

Finally a cost estimate is required. Given I plan to DIY this should I just include materials costs or do I have to include something for the value of my time?

Ask them - they must have to deal with that question re people doing building work themselves all the time. Don't guess and hope they end up agreeing with you.

 

[securespark]

OK, Cheadle Hulme. But a stones's throw from where I am in Bramhall.

I have worked in quite a few of the bungalows in SK7 & SK8, the ones nearest to the station were on Hulme Hall Road and Albert Road. From memory, they were quite dated inside but I can't remember the cable type.

If the cable is grey sheathed but has stranded cores, either copper coloured or tinned (silver), that is a giveaway to imperial cable.
Some early 70's cable was aluminium. Thicker CSA to enable it to carry the same current. That is copper coated and silver inside.

Sorry, I meant to say (in my experience anyway), that historic cable with a white sheath up north was DIY, grey pro install and vice versa in some areas of the south.

But as Adam rightly points out, modern white cable is LSF but there is another category which is 0HLS or LSHF which does not release Hydrogen Chloride when burnt.

If a cable is white or grey sheathed, of appropriate size, looks like T&E (i.e. is a flat cable with a red and black core at the sides and a bare core on the middle) and passes an IR test by a wide margin is it reasonable to assume it's safe to keep.

Pretty much. I know it's unlikely, but as the older cables had a smaller cpc (compared to latter-day cables),I would not use BS3036 fuses to protect these circuits as they would need to have a correction factor applied which makes the combination untenable.

 

[plugwash]

The "building notice for electrical work" says I can fill-out and sign the design and construction parts of the EIC myself

Really?

Turns out I misread it slightly, it doesn't say anything about qualifications but it also doesn't say anything about diyers

If the electrical contractor is not a member of NICEIC or ECA, they must complete the Design and Construction parts of the Installation Certificate (Form 2) BS 7671 (as amended) and you are required to arrange for an electrical contractor who is a member of these bodies to inspect and test the installation to enable them to complete the Inspection and Testing part of the form.

but I need to get a registered electrican to do the inspection and testing part.

Good luck with that.

It is a very common belief amongst electricians that when they certify that their inspection and testing was done in compliance with BS 7671 they are actually certifying that the design and construction done by their predecessor(s) was compliant.

I can imagine.

The "building notice for electrical work" requires me to choose "modifications to existing circuits" and/or "new circuits" for each part of the house.

Why?

Who knows but that is what the form asks for.

Seriously - if you go doing things without having explicitly nailed it down with BC and got their agreement that it will be OK you are risking major heartache.

Do you speak from experiance there?

 

[ericmark]

I have dealt with Flintshire CC and my son with Liverpool and Cheshire and Flintshire were much stricter is seems. But as long as you have the qualifications you can do the whole lot your self. The problem is getting the LABC inspector to accept your qualifications. He also wanted to see we had the meters required to inspect and test. As a whole re-wire the LABC charges are reasonable, they are silly for small jobs as the start point is first £2000 worth of work.

The major hurdle is getting the LABC to accept your bits of paper and allow you to inspect and test. Yes you can get forms with three signatures, but the person testing and inspecting has to be involved from start to finish it is not a case of simply getting them to test at the end. So if you want to do a room at a time that is a problem. There is also a problem getting a scheme member to use the three signature forms, likely even if a scheme member does the testing the LABC will still need to over see the work unless you can find some one permitted to do third party testing.

There does not seem to be a time limit with work done through the LABC my son has been on jobs which took over 5 years to complete he was called back to second fix after he had stopped being a sole trader and his new contract did not allow him to do any electrical work which was not through the firm, I know there were problems not sure of the outcome. But still under LABC 5 years after starting.

The 2391 when I did it was 12 weeks night class at 3 hours so 36 hours total, but course designed for electricians. The Flintshire LABC would not accept a 2391 but the others did. Flintshire did accept my foundation degree in electrical and electronic engineering. So step one is find what your LABC will accept.

 

[ericmark]

Oh as a PS the LABC inspector never came to physical check the work. Once I submitted the installation certificate the completion certificate arrived in the post. He did come to site when we took over the job, but was never seen again.

 

[plugwash]

Flintshire did accept my foundation degree in electrical and electronic engineering.

Heh

Personally I have a Meng in Electronic systems engineering and a PhD in Electrical and Electronic engineering. Wonder if that would get me anywhere...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ask your LABC - best to find out now than down the road when it's too late.

 

[securespark]

Plug, I wanted to rewire my house a few years ago, when I was fit.

In this thread I explained my difficulties with SMBC.

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/part-p-dilemma.126836/

I can only hope that things are a little easier now.

Some of this smells of bull:
http://www.stockport.gov.uk/2013/2994/developmentcontrol/14406/41351/buildingnoticeelectricalworkapp

 

[Spark123]

That second bit is ancient, P2 was withdrawn ages ago.