Making Door Stops Deeper ...

[Netto]

I'm replacing a rotten Edwardian external door which is mounted in its original frame where the Jamb and Stops are one piece - ie they can not be separated. The original door is 2040mm high, 840mm wide and 40mm thick. Given building regs now require external doors to be 44mm thick, I'm going to need more depth on the stops. How do I achieve this without removing the frames (the frame also forms part of a large multi-panelled glazed area so it's unfeasible to remove)?

I'm thinking I have to plane/chisel the face of all three stops (there is no threshold)... advice from an expert chippie would be well received. Thanks!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

It's difficult - normal advice would be to pull the old door frame out and replace with a new rebated door frame, but in this case that is not feasible. I'll offer you three alternatives:

ONE - you scrape the inside face of the frame clean (to get a wood surface, not a painted one), then measure the new door against the existing rebate. You may find that the rebate is 38mm vs. a 44mm or even a 50mm exterior door, so the difference is 44-38+1 =7mm. You need to allow about 1mm for paint thickness. Get some timber strip machined to be 7mm thick and the same width as the frame legs and head. Unfill the existing hinge recesses with a Dutchman and plane in flush (Google Dutchman - there are references to these on this site). Glue and pin the timber strip to the faces of the frame, increasing the depth of the rebate. Recut the hinge recesses. Rehang door. Adjust keep position (may also require filling-in with timber and recutting from scratch.

TWO - set-up an auxilliary sub base and fence for a router which will ride in the rebate. Recut the rebate to the required depth (45mm for a 44mm door), This will stop 150mm or so from the top and bottom ends of the jambs and either end of the head. These last six areas need to be cut with a chisel and worked out with a rebate plane, bullnose plane and finally a chisel. Not at all easy to get an acceptably clean end result, even for a pro

THREE - scrape-out the whole of the rebate (to remove paint), infill the rebate with strips of machined timber, fill and sand to get a smooth surface. Plant-on a new fire door stop lath in the required position. Swing the new door into the new, slightly smaller, opening.

I'm sure there are other strategies, but those are three I've used

 

[Netto]

It's difficult - normal advice would be to pull the old door frame out and replace with a new rebated door frame, but in this case that is not feasible. I'll offer you three alternatives:

ONE - you scrape the inside face of the frame clean (to get a wood surface, not a painted one), then measure the new door against the existing rebate. You may find that the rebate is 38mm vs. a 44mm or even a 50mm exterior door, so the difference is 44-38+1 =7mm. You need to allow about 1mm for paint thickness. Get some timber strip machined to be 7mm thick and the same width as the frame legs and head. Unfill the existing hinge recesses with a Dutchman and plane in flush (Google Dutchman - there are references to these on this site). Glue and pin the timber strip to the faces of the frame, increasing the depth of the rebate. Recut the hinge recesses. Rehang door. Adjust keep position (may also require filling-in with timber and recutting from scratch.

TWO - set-up an auxilliary sub base and fence for a router which will ride in the rebate. Recut the rebate to the required depth (45mm for a 44mm door), This will stop 150mm or so from the top and bottom ends of the jambs and either end of the head. These last six areas need to be cut with a chisel and worked out with a rebate plane, bullnose plane and finally a chisel. Not at all easy to get an acceptably clean end result, even for a pro

THREE - scrape-out the whole of the rebate (to remove paint), infill the rebate with strips of machined timber, fill and sand to get a smooth surface. Plant-on a new fire door stop lath in the required position. Swing the new door into the new, slightly smaller, opening.

I'm sure there are other strategies, but those are three I've used

Cheers Mr Knock. I'm going for Option Number 2.

I might first see if I can salvage the door but the lock stile, lower mullion and bottom rail need lots of TLC...

 

[Netto]

It's difficult - normal advice would be to pull the old door frame out and replace with a new rebated door frame, but in this case that is not feasible. I'll offer you three alternatives:

ONE - you scrape the inside face of the frame clean (to get a wood surface, not a painted one), then measure the new door against the existing rebate. You may find that the rebate is 38mm vs. a 44mm or even a 50mm exterior door, so the difference is 44-38+1 =7mm. You need to allow about 1mm for paint thickness. Get some timber strip machined to be 7mm thick and the same width as the frame legs and head. Unfill the existing hinge recesses with a Dutchman and plane in flush (Google Dutchman - there are references to these on this site). Glue and pin the timber strip to the faces of the frame, increasing the depth of the rebate. Recut the hinge recesses. Rehang door. Adjust keep position (may also require filling-in with timber and recutting from scratch.

TWO - set-up an auxilliary sub base and fence for a router which will ride in the rebate. Recut the rebate to the required depth (45mm for a 44mm door), This will stop 150mm or so from the top and bottom ends of the jambs and either end of the head. These last six areas need to be cut with a chisel and worked out with a rebate plane, bullnose plane and finally a chisel. Not at all easy to get an acceptably clean end result, even for a pro

THREE - scrape-out the whole of the rebate (to remove paint), infill the rebate with strips of machined timber, fill and sand to get a smooth surface. Plant-on a new fire door stop lath in the required position. Swing the new door into the new, slightly smaller, opening.

I'm sure there are other strategies, but those are three I've used

Oh - mean to say, oddly the vertical rebates are 44mm and the top horizontal is 40mm ... but the whole thing would have been hand cut on site 120 yrs ago...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Be very careful. A router used above the head is fairly dangerous in its' own right. This is also the most difficult to get right and the easiest to make an absolute fist of, even for the pros.

 

[Netto]

Be very careful. A router used above the head is fairly dangerous in its' own right. This is also the most difficult to get right and the easiest to make an absolute fist of, even for the pros.

Thinking maybe the door repair would be easiest and cheapest then!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Oh - mean to say, oddly the vertical rebates are 44mm and the top horizontal is 40mm ... but the whole thing would have been hand cut on site 120 yrs ago...

No. If made around 1900 it would have been made in a workshop because the job requires a bench - most site "manufacturing" ended in the early to mid 19th century. It is highly likely that all the rebates, all the more basic moulding work, etc was done on machinery unless your house was built by a small local builder in a very rural location. It isn't generally understood that by the 1860s a large amount of general joinery work was being done either completely or at least partially by machinery. Look up the Portsmouth Block Mills for an example of what was being achieved in the UK with woodworking machinery as early as 1803 - and the Victorian explosion in machinery manufacture hadn't yet happened then

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Thinking maybe the door repair would be easiest and cheapest then!

I was working on the understanding that you were set on replacing the door and so I assumed that the door was beyond economic repair. Any chance of a couple of pictures? It is often just the ends of the stiles and the bottom rail which are damaged and they might be repairable so long as you can find a local joinery shop or timber yard who can machine to size for you

 

[Netto]

I was working on the understanding that you were set on replacing the door and so I assumed that the door was beyond economic repair. Any chance of a couple of pictures? It is often just the ends of the stiles and the bottom rail which are damaged and they might be repairable so long as you can find a local joinery shop or timber yard who can machine to size for you

I wasn't minded for a repair because the joinery shops around me are more geared to making new stuff - they've not been keen on restoration work. There is one place but I'm fearful of the quote as they are very high end. But that's the price of professional craftsmanship I guess. Plus the door, although original, isn't particularly erm... noteworthy?

So, stiles have gone either end at the mortice into the bottom rail; and moulding at the bottom of both panels is ropey. Plenty of filler about. That's internal; external is a bit worse. I added a couple of pics of the frame/jamb/stops for context.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

At first sight that looks reasonably repairable. The mouldings can be replaced, maybe not with an exact match, but possibly something similar and in keeping. The panels I'd like to see once the mouldings were off. The muntin not meeting the bottom rail may be fixable by just reglueing the joints and clamping (6ft sash cramp). In fact the only two things I'd query are the state of the bottom rail (that hole doesn't look too healthy) and whether or not the door has visible signs of wet rot (have you tested it with a small screwdriver?)

 

[Netto]

The very base of the bottom rail is soft in places with my fingernail test... that hole would probably go all the way through to external if I gave it a push ... otherwise it all feels fairly solid other than the bits in the photos above.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

The very base of the bottom rail is soft in places with my fingernail test... that hole would probably go all the way through to external if I gave it a push ... otherwise it all feels fairly solid other than the bits in the photos above.

Sounds like you might be able to get away with just replacing the bottom rail and possibly treating the bottoms of the stiles wiyh wood hardener and maybe some 2-pack filler