Need advice on 'extras' we're being charged for fitting a bathroom

[Curiosity101]

Hopefully this is the best place in the forum to ask this question - apologies if not. Also apologies it's so long.

We're on day 3 of a 10 day refit of our bathroom.

Here is the quote we received, although it's missing a couple of bits including knocking out a none load bearing wall, installing a new radiator and blocking up a cupboard opening. We mentioned this upfront when we received the quote and they were happy the work was included even though it wasn't listed.

Plumbing & joinery.
-Dustsheet down & protect customer's property where possible.
-To take out the old & dispose of rubbish in the skip provided.
-Supply skip, priced for use on the drive. No permit required.
-To fit all supplies to the required positions & include isolation valves were appropriate.(For maintenance purposes)
-Fit suite to customer's specification as discussed to include the installation of a full suite. Supplied by the customer.
-Brick block window for new shower area as discussed.
-Block up old doorway & turn door round to open opposite way.
-Change soil stack as required for new toilet installation/position.
-Board floor in suitable tile insulation backer board as discussed.
-A/C doorway & new architraves as discussed.
-Second fix suite & silicone seal as required after tiling. (Dow corning 785 silicone)
-Supply all new materials were required to fit the above as discussed.
-Projects manage the installation with all that we supply/include.

Electrics.
-Supply & fit 4xLED down lights.
-Supply & fit an inline fan.
-Supply & fits witch.

Plastering.
-Overboard & skim ceiling to a plaster finish.
-Skim landing wall to a plaster finish.

Tiling.
-Fully tile walls in a ceramic tile to approx. 20SQM
-Tile the floor in a ceramic tile to approx.4 SQM.
-Supply adhesives, grouts & plastic tile trims to fit the above.

Your installation price & payments.
Bathroom installation &project management: £6912.00
For context the bathroom is 1.9m x 2.8m in size and we're based in the East Midlands.

We are supplying the suite + wastes + taps, and the tiles.

As far as I was concerned £6900 from talking to the person and reading the quote this was an all in price to get the job done.

So far the extras are:
£350 - Dot and dab the walls ready for tiling cause the walls aren't completely even, although they were previously tiled (it's 10m2 more than he was already planning to do on the original quote)
£60 - Build up the floor with 9mm ply to even out the difference
£80 - The additional pipework required for plumbing in the suite
£65 - A new door frame
£70 - Supply radiator
So £620 + VAT (so £744)

Does this sound reasonable? To me these should all be included as these should all be expected and were almost all visible. When we're already paying £6900 it feels like that should be plenty to cover the 'unexpected'.
I've had plenty of extras tagged onto jobs in the past, and am normally happy to pay as they seem perfectly reasonable, but these just aren't sitting right with me.

 

[blup]

Sounds like the tiler has looked at the wall and floor and suggested/insisted on the additional levelling so he can do a proper job. But is that your problem?, given the agreement is with builder who presumably didn't mention it when surveying/quoting. That said, if the floors/walls are so out of level that additional work is necessary but not initially identifiable then not unreasonable.

Detailed quotes have their advantages, but the main disadvantage is that you, as the consumer, won't be in the same position as the contractor to identify what might, and what will, be needed in addition to the quote - and the difference between the two.

Just my opinion as a consumer

Blup

 

[John D v2.0]

Agree blup has hit the nail on the head. The more detail the contractor provides in the quote, the more difficult it is to avoid paying for things missing.
Unless you have an architect or similar on board to provide a spec for them to quote then you'll be vulnerable to this.
However opinions may vary, and you can always negotiate in good faith on the extra parts.

 

[blup]

Likewise the door. If the existing lining is out of plumb, and the door, for example, tapers towards the bottom, the new door might simply not have the depth of lipping to plane it to shape. That would be a reasonable extra. But if it's to reduce inconvenience to the contractor/ chippie then arguably not.

Not forgetting that the quote says supply all materials "as discussed".

Blup

 

[Curiosity101]

That all sounds very reasonable. And I'd have no issue with paying for the work in those scenarios.

I guess maybe I could give you a little more of my thought process just to sense check that this seems logical. I'm absolutely dreading having any conversations with the guy in charge though, he really intimidates me. It's only happened a handful of times over the years but I feel very uncomfortable talking to him. I honestly have no idea how to have this conversation with him without getting his back up.

So a few more details....

They removed the existing tiles, and are carrying out the retiling, surely it's also their job to prepare the walls for tiling as part of the job? In my experience (and due to the fact the walls were already tiled with small 20 x 30 tiles, we're having 60 x 30 tiles) I don't believe it did need boarding ready for tiling. Just that boarding makes the job easier. He did also announce to us that the walls in houses are rarely straight anyway, especially when you're knocking through to join to rooms out. So this just feels like it was reasonable / expected from the get go.

With the floor, it's only out by a max of 1cm from one end to the other, he did state again that it's very common that the floors aren't level when you knock through two rooms. So again that's why to me it feels like it was expected and should be part of the initial quote.

With the door frame we have requested that instead of turning it around in it's original frame, as quoted, could he instead rip it all out and just fit a new frame. Then we'll deal with fitting a liner and new door. I was happy to pay for the materials (new frame) but expected that the labour was like for like as it's gone from: move door furniture, fill holes, adjust door, hang door -> remove door frame, fit new door frame. It's also worth noting that he still had to mess around with the space above the door cause it had a window in it so taking the whole frame out actually made boxing up the window easier.

Additional pipework for plumbing the suite in... nothing has changed since they came to quote, the pipework we need is all the same as it was then.

Supplying the radiator - we were told to supply the bathroom suite and tiles. Everything else would be covered. They're down to fit the radiator but have told us we were meant to be supplying it.

All in all I'm happy to pay for materials for the new frame - the rest I'm not comfortable with at all. Especially £350 for 10m2 of plasterboarding...

 

[blup]

He will argue these issues were "discussed" and therefore covered.

You could raise these points particularly on the plasterboard but he is unlikely to back down.

You will be expecting a top quality job for that money so only pay if you get that.

Plus an undertaking now that are no more extras to follow.

Good luck

Blup

 

[Curiosity101]

Appreciate the advice.

So to summarise you would confirm with him now that there will be no more extras, and accept and pay for the extras on completion of the job if the job was to the standard you expect?

Would you bother having the discussion about the extras or not?

 

[John D v2.0]

A good estimator should include provisional quotes for items that may be necessary, to avoid surprises later. Maybe he hasn't got that skill. It's definitely up for discussion especially for items no longer required due to the changes, as that should be valued similarly and subtracted.

 

[muggles]

Was it a quotation, or an estimate? There's an important legal difference - he can't vary a quotation without your prior agreement, but he can vary an estimate if it turns out additional works need doing.

I think he's being unreasonable in adding these extras personally. Preparing a wall for tiling is clearly something which is needed on every job where tiles are already in place. Building up an entire floor with 9mm ply isn't going to remove any difference, it's just going to make it 9mm higher, unless he's planning on packing the ply but if he is then he'll have to do it extremely carefully to avoid any bounce in the floor which will cause your tiles to come loose. I suspect for £60 he's just going to nail some ply to the existing floor. Assuming your suite positions haven't changed from those previously agreed, he's already included pipework in his price and can't charge for the same thing twice. Agree in principle that there's the same amount of work on the door frame, so depends on T&Cs here, if his T&Cs say that all variations from the original quote will be charged as extra then he can charge labour as well, if not then he's being a bit mean on that. I think he could have reasonably expected you to supply the radiator if you're supplying everything else though.

 

[Curiosity101]

It has always been referred to as a quote and does say quote on the PDF. Surely he doesn't have to carry out the 'extra' work he'd identified without additional payment though, even if it is a quote rather than an estimate?

The ply cost is the packing / building it up cost. He already expected to board the floor, this is additional work now that he has had a spirit level on it and seen that it isn't quite even.

I will definitely happily pay for the door frame materials. That's not a problem. I suppose I could concede the radiator, I've never seen a radiator as part of a bathroom suite but at the end of the day I can supply one easily enough.

 

[muggles]

It depends on whether you've agreed to the extra work or not. Your contract with him is for him to do a complete job, and he can't legally charge extra for things he didn't think about when pricing it unless you agree to him doing so, ideally in writing following him giving you a written quote for the additional work. An estimate would allow him to do the additional work without referring to you, but a quote does not. I think paying for the radiator would be a useful concession to show you're not being unreasonable

 

[Curiosity101]

We haven't agreed to it, he's already done most of it though. He'd already done most of it before he sent us prices for the additional work. Which I do appreciate on some levels, as he could've stalled to a halt and waited which would have been pretty bad. Although worse for him than me and he literally does bathrooms back to back. Always gives them a 10day window and always completes on time from what he said when we hired him. That's one of the reasons we went with him, to have that level of confidence of bringing it in on time, and what looked like a very clear all in price...

Back to the point, it's just building up the floor and fitting a radiator that's left from that list. Not that it matters too much to me whether it's done before / after I agree to it, cause I'd pay what I felt fair regardless of whether it was done before / after I agreed to it.

 

[Hot&Cold]

-Projects manage the installation with all that Mint supply/include.

what does that mean ?

 

[Curiosity101]

It felt like a catch all around project managing the installation, we didn't discuss every point in depth.

 

[JohnD]

in order to calculate a price, the contractor must know what he is including.

He'd be quick enough to say "that's not included" if you asked for a gold-plated bidet.

For some reason he didn't want you to know what he had included in his price.

Profits are made on the "extras"