New Beauty/Tanning Salon - power confusion

[JohnHamer1977]

Hi... I hope you guys can help

I am trying to open a very small beauty/tanning salon.
Our problem is the amps of the sunbeds.

We need 2 sunbeds that start up at about 60 amps and operate at 50 amps.
So that's 100 amps total... but the supply in the shop is only 100 amps.

The sunbed manufactures electrician is telling us that if it's 100 amp then really we have 120 amps available.
If we do have 120 amps then we are fine, if it's only 100 amps we are not and will need to look into an upgrade...


... which is my next question ...
what upgrade options/costs are available to me:
200 amps single phase?
3 phase?
single to 3 phase converter?
others?


hope you can help this is really confusing... i'm getting confliction info and I really need to know where I stand.

Thanks

 

[plugwash]

The sunbed manufactures electrician is telling us that if it's 100 amp then really we have 120 amps available.
If we do have 120 amps then we are fine, if it's only 100 amps we are not and will need to look into an upgrade...

you'll probablly get away with it especially if the sunbeds aren't running continuously but its certainly not good practice to run in constant overload like that.

... which is my next question ...
what upgrade options/costs are available to me:
200 amps single phase?

you generally only see this in some rural settings where the step down from 11KV is single phase.

3 phase?

thats the normal next step after 100A single phase. The rec will supply a 3 phase service head and meter as part of the installation but your electrician will need to replace your CU with a suitable 3 phase DB.

single to 3 phase converter?

this won't help you at all, they don't magically create extra power.

others?

you may be able to get 125A single phase in some areas, have fun finding a CU thats built for it though

 

[JohnHamer1977]

thanks for the fast response plugwash

this is a new venture so I don't know how long the sunbeds will be running for but definatly not continuously... I am estimating about 20 hours a week on and off.

 

[Pensdown]

We need 2 sunbeds that start up at about 60 amps and operate at 50 amps.
So that's 100 amps total... but the supply in the shop is only 100 amps.

Are you sure it's 50amps per sun bed? Thats seems very high

 

[JohnHamer1977]

Yeah that's what the manufacturers are saying.

They are 60 tube 200w units.

 

[JohnD]

If you started them up separately, you would still have a start-up surge of 60A for the second one, plus 50A for the one already running. You will have to put the start-up switches well away from each othert so no-one can turn them both on at the same time.

You will also have lights (not a big prob), heating in the winter, a kettle or two, a microwave for your lunchtime pie, air-conditioning because the shop will be baking from those sunbeds various other electrical devices...

Even though you could run the two things with nothing else in the shop, I think your other appliances are going to tip you over the edge. And you will need the electrical installation in the premises to be modern and in good condition if it is going to be running at capacity for continuous periods. I would even think about having a 100A MCCB if this could be relied on to trip earlier than the BS88 main fuse from an overload (it would be less inconvenient for you) but this is really a question for an industrial electrician.

Do the things have a 3-phase option? Or (if you haven't bought them yet) do the makers or other makers have a 3-phase equivalent?
If your shop is in a high street, the electricity company could doubtless provide you with a 3-phase supply, but ask what it will cost (commercial premises might already have it depending on previous use).

If you haven't yet rented the premises, see if there are other premises available that already have a 3-phase supply.

 

[JohnHamer1977]

If you started them up separately, you would still have a start-up surge of 60A for the second one, plus 50A for the one already running. You will have to put the start-up switches well away from each othert so no-one can turn them both on at the same time.

You will also have lights (not a big prob), heating in the winter, a kettle or two, a microwave for your lunchtime pie, various other electrical devices...

Even though you could run the two things with nothing else in the shop, I think your other appliances are going to tip you over the edge. And you will need the electrical installation in the premises to be modern and in good condition if it is going to be running at capacity for continuous periods. I would even think about having a 100A MCCB if this could be relied on to trip earlier than the BS88 main fuse from an overload (it would be less inconvenient for you) but this is really a question for an industrial electrician.

Do the things have a 3-phase option? Or (if you haven't bought them yet) do the makers or other makers have a 3-phase equivalent?
If your shop is in a high street, the electricity company could doubtless provide you with a 3-phase supply, but ask what it will cost (commercial premises might already have it depending on previous use).

If you haven't yet rented the premises, see if there are other premises available that already have a 3-phase supply.

I can order the beds 3 phase - no cost differance.
I will ask about getting 3 phase installed but I think it's gonna cost more than we have.
I am starting the business on some redundancy money so the budget is all spoken for - not ideal but this is make or break for us.

They would never get started at the same time.

What is the "100A MCCB"?


Finding another location is not an option, we spent months trying to find this place and it's perfect for a Beauty Salon - parking, on a bus route, on a school run, surrounded by houses, on a main row of shops etc

 

[JohnD]

An MCCB is a bit like an MCB, but "Moulded Case Circuit Breaker" rather than "Miniature Circuit Breaker". They are bigger, heavier, can handle bigger loads, not used domestically but in industrial and commercial installations. As they trip and can be reset like a switch, they are a lot less trouble than having your main fuse blow and calling out the electricity supplier to replace it.

One could probably be obtained that would trip faster than the suppliers main fuse from a slight overload, but it would need someone cleverer than me to be sure that you could rely on it. Some of them can be adjusted by a trained person.

 

[Pensdown]

So that we can calculate your demand, do you know how long each tanning cycle is and the estimated off time between clients.

What other loads do you have/propose?

MCCB = Moulded Case Circuit Breaker. They give very close over current protection and the trip current can be adjusted.

 

[Pensdown]

Snap!

 

[JohnD]

Snap!

 

[swelec]

My wife started her own salon around three years ago ( also paid for out of a redundancy package I recieved at the time )

We fitted one stand up sunbed only, as the existing supply was only rated at 60A single phase. The bed came as a single/3 phase option - you wire the plug & socket to suit - a very large industrial 63A set.

After two years of service, I got a call from the wife saying that the electric had gone. I found that the 60A fuse had popped

Called the local REC and a spark came to check things out - with the bed running and most of the other ancilliary equipment, we were drawing 70A

He upgraded the fuse to 80A and things are OK now

If you are running a salon not a sunbed centre, then 100A will not be enough for two beds + other equipment

I did get a quote for a 3 Phase supply -------- £1400 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JohnHamer1977]

Thanks for the explanation - yes sounds like a very good idea (100A MCCB).

OK we guesstimate that the beds will be used about 20 hours a week.
The usage will be a bit sporadic but in between clients will be about 5 mins or so (that's roughly the time to get changed, put deodorant on etc)

Other things we have are:
- obviously lighting (the shops only about 30 sq meters)
- spray tan equip (like http://www.tantrick.biz/acatalog/MiniMist.html not sure what power consuption will be)
- wax heater (like http://www.capitalhairandbeauty.co....3003469a82740c0a801a506e5/Product/View/785204 not sure what power consuption will be)

- kettle (could make sure not used at same time as with the beds)
- microwave (could make sure not used at same time as with the beds)
- LCD TV or radio
doing the nails is all manual doesn't need anything electrical.

 

[Adam_151]

Its going to be very very tight tight on a 100A single phase, I wouldn't worry about the fact that they take 60A to start up, that'll be a quick transisiant current... (unless its like the discharge lamps you got on stage equipment where it takes a little while to strike up, but I'm thinking they are going to be more like florescent strip lights that are very quick to strike up?)

But I'm more concerned with the 50A each runnning current, from what you say they are going to be pretty much constantly on (and it might be better if they are only off for 5 mins to run them constantly) you'll be maxing out the service constantly, as plugwash says the fuse will take small duration overloads without blowing, but gradually you'll weaken it and blow it (and its not really good practice)

I don't think the LCD tv /radio or the spraying equipment will be much load

The kettle is a fair load but not long in duration, microwave is less load but more drawn out.

The wax heater (any sort of heater would be a concern) i'm worried about, though chances are it'll cycle on and off with a thermostat, so it might just scape by. Do you have hair driers in such and entablishment?

The big issue is going to be if you have a cold day and the space heaters come out... Or if one day you decide you want aircon...

(For reference here is the time current graph for BS1361 service fuses made by bussman http://www.twobeds.com/upload/userfiles/adam_151/1361_time_current.GIF )

If I were you I'd be asking the DNO for price for a new supply and would put ~ 30-35kva as my max demand, and be expecting them to quote for a 3phase service head, if its expensive then I don't really know

 

[JohnD]

If money's tight you could just buy the one tanner. If business is good and the money comes rolling in it will contribute to the cost of an electrical upgrade if and when you decide to buy a second