New Boiler? - Powerflushe? - Keep Old? - What to do????

[bluey831]

Hi -would greatly appreciate some advice from those that know on here.

We have a Glowworm Ultimate bolier and a big - I mean BIG - hot tank. I think it has been in place for about 15 years- we have been here for 6. We have a BG Homecare contract and a few years ago it paid off as the boiler had lots of problems and they replaced virtually every part. Since then no problems and it works well. ( Had a new pump on the Homecare thingy too)

Now - we have 11 radiators and the coldest room in the house is the living room where we spend most of the time!! (Old house with high celings) We have just had a second rad put in there. We have a downstairs bathroom so we dont use the bath often but rely on our upstairs power shower.

Had BG engineer in today as some of the rads would not come on and one of the valves had a leak. (I tried to bleed and isolate and I think I upset it - yikes) Anyway BG man replaced a number of valves but showed me the water coming out and it was black - truly black. He says it needs power flushing and if we were going to replace the boiler at some point to get it done then. It probably never has been done to be honest and he says he will need to report back to BG which means further problems might not be resolved if it is related to the sludge swirling around.

When all the radiators are on, the one in the living room is hardly warm - it is the furthest from the boiler. (If I turn the others off then it comes up really hot so not a problem with air or pipes) All the radiators have Theromatic Contol Valves. We dont have any room stat or hot tank stat.

Do I
A) Get a new boiler and get a power flush. Something that will adequately drive 11 rads and hope that the cleaning out and a bit more powerful boiler fires up the living room rad better.

B) Just get the system Powerflushed and wait for the boiler to die. BG sent me a letter about a year ago saying the manfacturer has stopped making some parts for our boiler. Therefore if it goes pop I probably need to get a new one anyway. I did have BG give me a quote for a new boiler last January and as part of the quote the say Powerflush £293 and Install Magnaclean filter £218. Total £512

C) If we get a new boiler I really need to have similar to the power shower if we went for a combi. The pressure seems to be good for the cold water but I dont know how I would equate that pressure from a cold tap to coming through a combi and the shower. The idea of finding out when everything has been changed and installed is scary and makes me want to cling onto the hot tank. There is only two of us and mainly the only time we use hot water is for showers and morning wash. Combi should save us some dosh on that basis. However, we have an immersion and when our boiler was hiccuping the immersion was our hot water source - so very nice backup.

If anybody is still reading - lay all the answers on me.

bluey

 

[jackpike]

don't pay any attention to that BG report, the operative (they are not engineers) do this to scare the living daylights out of you in order to get sales, the spares for ultimates are still available, but if you want a new boiler, get quotes from local plumbers, preferabley one that someone recommends,don't get a quote from BG it will be double the price a local plumber can do it for,

 

[filsyn]

Option 4, put some X800 in for a few hours then drain the system, removing and flushing out each radiator 1 at a time and then refill and drain a couple more times, this could sort you out for a few years.

It all depends on how you are financially, option 2 is just throwing money away IMO, if you go for option 1 something along the lines of a Worcester or Vaillant and don't get BG to do the install have somebody local with a good reputation do the work.

 

[mickyg]

keep the boiler, it will prob last another 10yrs or so. Parts are still available.
Its unlikely you needed "loads of parts changing". Prob just one and they misdiagnosed. So their incompetence has given you peace of mind, ironicially.
Your system sounds like it needs balancing as you say all the rads will work if you turn others off. Have a look in the FAQ for balancing you can do this yourself.
You may need to get the system flushed out, there's various ways of doing this, some you can do yourself some you can't, search this site for info you will find a million posts on the subject.

 

[bluey831]

Thanks for the quick responses guys.

mickyg - agree with what you say. At the time they came back to the boiler quite a few times as they changed parts and the problem remained. So it is highly likely that they mis diagnosed. DIY is not my thing - and tho I will try - usually it means getting someone out to sort out the mess I made!!! So unless it is simple I'm best steering clear. The balancing thing means closing down the radiators nearest the boiler and opening up the ones further away or where we need the most heat - is that correct?

Stemull - see above re my diy skills!! Interesting tho you say getting the powerflush would be a waste. This is my dilemma. My thoughts were to keep the boiler and get the flush done. My thinking is that the sludge would be cleared out and the system would be more efficient. I'm after hotter radiators especially in the living room. The others are pretty much ok.

jackpike - agree that BG will use any tactic to get business. So it may be that Glowworm has said it is not making one particular part (which I might never need anyway ) and BG does the scare thing. Im not in any hurry to change the boiler if I dont need to - however, I am thinking about whether I would save by having a decent Combi - assuming it gave enough power to the shower and heated the radiators.

 

[D_Hailsham]

When all the radiators are on, the one in the living room is hardly warm - it is the furthest from the boiler. (If I turn the others off then it comes up really hot so not a problem with air or pipes) All the radiators have Thermostatic Control Valves.

The system needs balancing. See How to balance a CH system.

You really should have a wall thermostat. A cylinder thermostat is also a good idea, but it might be a more involved job if you have a pumped heating, gravity hot water system. If you have any motorized valves, a cylinder thermostat can be fitted.

Sludge is only a problem if it settles and blocks the pipes/radiators. Provided it is in suspension in the water, it's no problem.

 

[bluey831]

Got it about the balancing. Problem is about shutting off the valves is that I did one or two the other day and they started leaking, just slightly but probably because they had not been touched since Noah sailed. BG Homecare contract replaced some of them.

Now, if I have the BG Homecare, should they not do the balancing act as it were? Of course, they probably will now say they wont do it until it has been flushed? Catch 22!!!

So from the posts so far it seems there is differing views on whether the flush will solve the problem. Certainly it seems I need to be doing the balancing but I'm not sure of my competence to do it reasonably correctly.[/i][/b]

 

[D_Hailsham]

Now, if I have the BG Homecare, should they not do the balancing act as it were?

I think you will be out of luck there. Balancing is a task which should be carried out by the installer. The only time BG should do any balancing is if they replace a valve, and then it's just a case of adjusting the lockshield valve on the radiator concerned.

Certainly it seems I need to be doing the balancing but I'm not sure of my competence to do it reasonably correctly.

The traditional way of balancing was to feel the radiator pipes and make sure they all felt approximately the same, i.e all flows the same and all returns the same with the difference between flow and return of each radiator the same as those at the boiler.

Unfortunately, thermostatic rad valves are a bit fussier; but the traditional way will give better results than not balancing.

 

[bengasman]

The system probably does need balancing, but there is not point doing that until it is cleaned.
After the cleaner has disolved the dirt, it needs coming out. to do that properly, ALL the valves need to be wide open.
Clean it first, then balance it.
If you get a local RGI to do both jobs, you should be getting pretty good value for money.

 

[bluey831]

Right - I have turned on all radiators full and been around to them all. Eight of the eleven came on and each gave out reasonable heat - some a little warmer than others. Three did not come on at all. I checked the flow and return by hand and they seemed pretty similar difference. Interestingly, the rads that felt slightly less warm also had the return pipe feeling less warm. However the flow pipe seemed to be roughly the same temp as all the others that were a little warmer.

I then went around turning off each rad one at at time starting nearest to the boiler. I waited for about 10 minutes in each case to see if any of the three would come to life. It was after I turned off the fourth radiator that one of the three cold ones came on full. Turning off a couple more brought on the second cold rad.

The third rad would not come alive until I turned off every radiator, including the two that came on late. I heard the water gurgling into this last radiator when I turned off all the others. It then came fully on hot.

What does this tell me - other than confusing the hell out of me????

UPDATE: One hour later - I have reversed the process and turned all the rads back on one at a time apart from one - which is in the bathroom and second nearest to the boiler.

Result: All radiators stayed on - including the three that did not come on initially. Now - in theory - if I turn off the CH now and leave everything as it is then tomorrow when I turn on the CH all these radiators should come on as they were when I left them today. In practice - I suspect most of the rads will come on but some wont - probably the three that did not come on today.

Any bets on what will happen????

 

[mickyg]

if it was gurgling as it came on it sounds like you might have had some air trapped in the pipework and now it will be ok.. Once you get the last one hot leave it on full, then work your way back and turn the rads on a little just so they work

 

[bluey831]

mickyg - crossed post - see update on my last post - did exactly what you suggested except did not turn on the last one in the bathroom.

 

[bengasman]

Symptoms are typical for a system full of crud. Start with adding a bottle of Fernox F3. You will have to program the CH to come on twice a day for it to work, even if it is only for half an hour. Leave it in for 2 weeks.
Best to drain and refill the system a couple of times before you do this.
ALL the valves must be FULLY OPEN when you drain. With a bit of luck that will shift part of the debris. Give the header tank a good stir when it is refilling to get the deposits out of it.

 

[bluey831]

Well I done as I said in my last post. In short - yesterday all radiators worked after turning all but one off and then turning them back on.

Left everything the same and tried again today - the last two radiators did not come on. Well at least the last one did not get any heat, the second last one got lukewarm.

What is this telling me? If they all worked yesterday when I shut off the timer then they should all work today when I put them back on. I'm sure if I had gone around again today and shut all the rads off at the TRV's then the last one would have come on and the rest would have stayed on when I turned them back on.

Is it sludge? - if it is sludge why are they working when I turn them all off and back on again?

Is my boiler not up to the task? - again, same question why would it work yesterday and not today?

Is it air? - having put everything to one radiator that should have got rid of the air and when I turned them back on yesterday they all worked.

Damn confuzzled!!!

 

[bengasman]

...Damn confuzzled!!!

The post above this one tells you exactly what to do.