New Boiler

[milliemop]

Two of us live in a 2 bed semi-bungalow and at the moment have an old Apollo Fanfare 30/50 still working well, but am looking to install a newer and more efficient boiler, (as the gas bills are getting greater)----must it be a condensing type or can I fit another standard wall unit.

Rob

 

[ChrisR]

It'll almost certainly have to be a condenser. There's a procedure for establishing permissibility of a non-c, but you're unlikely to qualify. You can send the flue out upwards through the roof - getting common.

 

[Agile]

As a matter of interest if you want to replace the boiler to get higher efficiency then why would you consider using a NON-condensing unit?

Your Appollo is probably say 65% efficient, a standard boiler would be about 80% and a condensing boiler over 90%.

Surely if you are paying for a replacement you should try to get the highest efficiency available?

Tony Glazier

 

[Paul Barker]

Yes it's a nobrainer. Get a quality steamer
What I don't understand is who is commissioning all these non steamers still being sold? I couldn't find the words to explain to my corgi inspector why I'd done it. How come other people think they can? Or are none of them getting commissioned? In which case what is the guarantee worth?

However in Feb I did commission a Biasi someone bought himself from bnq, had a commissioning fault, bnq were happy to swap it over no questions asked. Spose that's how the non registered installers are getting away with it.

 

[Agile]

Are you saying that the boiler was taken off the wall and returned to the store?

Thats not how its meant to work!

The manufacturers will send their engineer to repair any makers faults onsite. Its not their concern where or why the boiler is fitted. They have an obligation under the Sale of Goods Act and are happy to fix any faulty boilers in situ without asking any questions.

What "commissioning" fault did you encounter? To me that description implies the fault is with the commissioning methods but I dont expect thats what you meant!

Tony Glazier

 

[ChrisR]

They have an obligation under the Sale of Goods Act

Retailer's is precedent isn't it.
Moot point when a plumber supplies a boiler.

who is commissioning all these non steamers

Lots of flats can't take condensers.

 

[Paul Barker]

It aouldn't flame prove Tony, but polarity was correct and visual check passed. I rang bnq, young lady there didn't seem to know how to get hold of manufacturing service team but said if customer took boiler back she would change it.

As it was the first stage of commissioning, in that there was still yet a hot drain down and refill to do and the flue hadn't been gobbo'd in, I took it off the wall for the customer.

When I say Commissioning fault, I mean a fault in the boiler from new.

I had one with a Buderus once (so I'm not saying they are perfect), no two actually. The 600 28C has the pcb in a module on the left which has multidudinous contacts to make through edge connectors and a big plastic cheese head bolt on top to hold it down. I now know you have to tighten that down for all you're worth. The fault which did require a call out was the glow electrode on a 500 28C. I believe the part is only £15. Thw Worcester / Buderus man who came to fix it said they'd had a few failures of that part from new. Think I might stock one, because to me it's easier and cheaper to fix it myself than me and customer wait in for Worcester service team. I don't know what their response is like in your area but here it's end of week if you phone at beginning.

 

[Paul Barker]

Chris,

I'm very sinical about the non steamers being sold today. Yes there are a few flats, but most boilers allow a lot of flue diversion inside the building which would make up for difficulties with positioning. No longer can we expect to always hang boiler on wall and get flue out of side or back straight through wall all nice and cosy. Bends extensions and vertical flue kits are coming home.

I was in pts other week, buildery looking bloke was asking for a heat pack, Bob behind counter said condensing or non condesing? "non condensing", off he went with it. I bit my tongue. After he'd gone I said to Bob. How can he fit that? Bob shriugged his shoulders, "we're still selling loads of them, a builder was in here last week and bought 10 of them."

I once went to an emergency with unvented kit for an insurance company (nearest guy to Pontefract with unvented cet. who ansered the phone that night)

New build, with unvented kit and sealed system kit for regular boiler, and pump in loft cupboard. Customer who was first purchaser from builder, had been told by the builder "you don't need to worry abouyt what's in there".

Pressure of main system went low, but because it only relied on OH stat to know it didn't cut out becaue boiler was 3 floors down. Pump however right up in that room was running dry and making the noise which allerted the emergency call to the insurance company. However the unvented kit was a little dubious although not strictly wrong, neither it nor the boiler had Benchmark's filled in.

Isn't this happening where you are?

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

This is why I am totally ignoring Part P, NOBODY is policeing Part L and never has done since it came in in april 2002, I have been made to look like a bad guy inflating work by complying with Part L and NOBODY has been pulled for non compliance so wheyyyyy heeyyyy lets keep bangin in them non condensers, went to a house this week to do a landlord cert where the guy doing the kitchen is corgi but only has ticket for boilers, he didn't understand compartment ventilation, he didn't understand how to fit the cooker flex which he had done illegally and he fitted an air vent with a fly screen, plus admitted using push fit overflow for condense drainage on other jobs, yea so I should worry about Part P, not.

 

[chrishutt]

I agree with everthing PVMan said above.

 

[Agile]

PVM said "admitted using push fit overflow for condensate drainage on other jobs".

I thought that that was permitted on internal runs although external must be in a minimum of 32 mm.

I do have to say that the boilers that I see on warranty visits are still mostly non-condensing models. Some fitted by RGIs who are obviously not GWNing them.

Paul, I am very surprised that you did not invoke the correct procedure with the Biasi boiler and went to all the trouble of taking it off again. Had you called the Company they would have sent their local service agent within 24 hrs.

Because the smaller boiler manufacturers use independent service agents you get a much quicker response that the Pottys, Ideal, Worcs and Vaillant where you have to wait until they have a staff engineer in your area.

Some of those larger manufacturers will allow the installer to replace the part under the warranty and return the faulty part for a credit. But unless you are doing it often its a bother to set up. Simply you get authorisation from the company to replace the part, take the old one to HRPC who give you a new one providing the company remembered to fax tham first.

Tony Glazier

 

[gstens baxi]

no one asked where in the uk you are, in scotland the new part l regs do not apply.

as for larger manufactureers not coming out to warranty calls this may have been the case in the past but not today.

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

When I did my acs cen1 4 yeards ago I spotted all the faults in the bay with no problem, exept the examiner said I had missed one item, he tapped a peice of pushfit overflow pipe a couple of times and I said oh you mean the boiler condensate pipe is push fit and not solvent weld and he said yep well done, so I have done all my boiler jobs using white solvent weld stuff.

Not heard about using 32mm for external runs !, I just use 22mm lagged with
max thick lagging, anyway what would be the point of running 32mm pipe to a McAlpine soakaway 600mm from the building only to connect it to the 22mm connection ?

 

[Agile]

I am not quite sure how much the condensate pipe relates to gas safety but I suppose its understandable. Must ensure I check on that in future.

You can use smaller pipe than 32 mm outside if you lag it or 32mm unlagged. Usually 32 mm unlagged is less obtrusive if its going to a kitchen open gulley.

Tony

 

[kevplumb]

i was told on my last resit you cant use pushfit apparently the condensate rots the rings