New build Town House electrical standards

[Kooga]

Hello
I have just moved into my newly built house by Taylor Wimpey and starting to ask questions about the wiring. First they have used spurs in the kitchen to add the extra powerpoints I requested, just single hops. Is this permitted on a new build? The consumer unit is on the other side of the wall about a metre away. On the familiarisation visit they tell you all electrical wires on the ground floor and 1st floor run from the ceiling down and on the top floor from the floor up.
Second, the power in the garage is provided off the main ring downstairs by downfusing it on a 13A spur which feeds to the back of the lightswitch which is again downfused to 3A. A single spur comes off of it to run a double socket. I have been told I can add as many power points as I wish off of this, spurring one to the next to the next and it is still safe as it is fused by a 13A fuse. Is this acceptable on a new build?
Many thanks in advance.
Kooga

 

[flameport]

Probably not the best arrangement, but will comply and is exactly what would be expected on a new build where the top priority is to do things as cheaply as possible.

 

[securespark]

Are they fused or unfused spurs in the kitchen?

At what stage of the build did you ask for alterations?

13A spur for garage is perfectly safe and within regs but may not be suitable for your loading requirements.

 

[ericmark]

Hello
I have just moved into my newly built house by Taylor Wimpey and starting to ask questions about the wiring. First they have used spurs in the kitchen to add the extra powerpoints I requested, just single hops. Is this permitted on a new build?

Although not what I would do nothing really wrong

The consumer unit is on the other side of the wall about a metre away. On the familiarisation visit they tell you all electrical wires on the ground floor and 1st floor run from the ceiling down and on the top floor from the floor up.
Second, the power in the garage is provided off the main ring downstairs by downfusing it on a 13A spur which feeds to the back of the lightswitch which is again downfused to 3A. A single spur comes off of it to run a double socket. I have been told I can add as many power points as I wish off of this, spurring one to the next to the next and it is still safe as it is fused by a 13A fuse. Is this acceptable on a new build?
Many thanks in advance.
Kooga

This is not easy to fault although I would regard it a bad practice. We should not feed an appliance over 2kw from the ring final but this is in the appendix 12 and counting a garage as an appliance is also a little off. Where it is likely to fall fowl is :-

314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit

If you were to overload the socket you would be plunged into darkness so I would say that does not comply.

Wait and see what others say.

 

[winston1]

We should not feed an appliance over 2kw from the ring final.

There is no regulation to say this. Kettles, fan heaters, even ovens come with 13A plugs and are obviously intended to plug into ring finals.

314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit.

No worse than the danger that may arise from a power cut.

 

[westie101]

314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit

Just for the sake of it

How far do you go?

By having a split board you are not dividing the supply into circuits surely, but groups of circuits, which is not stated above.
Where do the regs (not a book interpreting them) actually say you must have a split board?

Should you have one lighting circuit and one socket circuit per room as that is much safer than an upstairs, downstairs split.

Should you follow some foreign practice and wire each socket and light individually back to the CU as that is safer.

Just interested as the quoted definition does not seem to fit exactly to the common interpretation.

And as stated what about a power cut or operation of the cut-out fuse?

 

[OwainDIYer]

On a new installation I would say it is not "good workmanship" and is a cheap and shoddy job.

Compliant with the letter of the Regs though.

 

[ericmark]

You do make a good point about power cuts and I have a battery backed light for the stairs.

So with emergency lights there is no need to split into circuits for safely lighting.

Of the 6 reasons to split into circuits only

(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation

really says we may need more than one RCD and that only to counter the collective leakage with one RCD causing it to trip. Clearly with caravans and boats all goes through one RCD so why not with a house?

But simply

(i) avoid hazards and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault

means we need more than one circuit

314.2 Separate circuits shall be provided for parts of the installation which need to be separately controlled, in such a way that those circuits are not affected by the failure of other circuits, and due account shall be taken of the consequences of the operation of any single protective device.

Working out what needs to be separately controlled is not cut and dried but for a fault in the house to affect garage or garage to affect house I would consider does not comply.

314.4 Where an installation comprises more than one final circuit, each final circuit shall be connected to a separate way in a distribution board. The wiring of each final circuit shall be electrically separate from that of every other final circuit, so as to prevent the indirect energizing of a final circuit intended to be isolated.

I can't see that having a garage on the same RCD as the house never mind the same MCB complies. To me the garage should either be a MCB with SWA feeding a RCD in garage or a RCBO feeding garage.

There have been discussions as to if "protected against overcurrent" includes exceeding 30 mA or not? With a voltage device clearly 50 volt has nothing to do with current so a ELCB-v will not form a circuit. We tend to continue with new devices even retaining old names so a switched mode power supply feeding a 12 volt bulb is still called a transformer. However a RCD does measure current to and from a system and if the out of balance exceeds 30 mA it auto disconnects so once the current difference goes over the limit it operates so one to my mind must consider it as falling into the broad description of an over current device.

So with a house with two RCD we have two circuits. However these are not final circuits 314.3 and 314.3 deals with final circuits so does not include the RCD. They would include RCBO's however.

"due account shall be taken of the consequences of the operation of any single protective device" means risk assessment, not necessary written but some one must assess the risk to occupants of house if a action in garage causes the MCB or RCD to trip and vice versa.

With any risk assessment we have to consider the number of times it is likely to happen. So major power cut maybe once a year if that. Tripping RCD at least in my house more like once a month.

There is clearly no 100% answer it is down to some one who has assessed the risk. With commercial organisations the HSE requires all health and safety items are in writing. It could be email, SMS or paper but it must be in writing.

So requesting the written risk assessment to the likely risk to house or garage users when the others actions have caused a break in supply is a valid action. Some one has to in writing explain why they felt having garage and house on same breaker and also in garage lights and socket on same breaker was not going to create an unacceptable risk. However of course that request must be in writing same rules apply heath and safety requires everything in writing.

Clearly the answer must be in writing and this will cause a problem for the builder he has to give a written reply. Should any one be injured as a result of a power cut then this written replay could be presented to a court of law.

So although one can't 100% say there actions are wrong you can make it so they have to think carefully about it and decide is it really worth their while no to have a separate supply house to garage.

 

[Kooga]

Thanks everyone for theresponse. Looks like it is compliant but shoddy and cheap not so much to cut costs however I would expect it is more to increase profits.
For the records I bougth the house before they even started building it and requested the powerpoints before the walls were even constructed. The spurs in the kitchen are not fused. At a whopping £70 for each additional double socket with standard white faceplates. Chrome or brass was an extra£20.

Recessed LED lights were an extra £35 each which I turned down. I have since replaced them myself for £4 per light which includes the LED bulbs. Offer at LIDL just after xmas 3 for £12.

Not filled in the NHBC report yet so making sure I have the facts right before I send it back to them and that might make them respond. Over 50 snagging points now raised on the house, majority are minor, few major ones, guttering doesn't catch the water bricks always wet, garden totally flooded on a wet day and is just marshland. En-suite units put in wrong way round, overall sloppy.

Many thanks

 

[ericmark]

I bought my house in 1979 and even then it was £25 per socket to have extras so price does not surprise me.

My son many years ago wired houses. He had no qualifications at the time other than his RAE radio exam. He was in essence like an apprentice he would get visits from the inspecting and testing electrician but he wired each house the same using same routes it was like a production line he did not need to know anything special it was the same with each house.

When specials were requested another electrician would arrive to do them although done before it was plastered it was in essence a different job to the main wiring.

As to if this is still done where large estates are built I don't know but the Account of Emma Shaw's death seems to say it still goes on. Very different with single and double plots but with large estates wiring was do by people with little over minimum wage the electrician only checked their work.

Once you realise how it is done one sees why extra sockets are spurs and there is nothing wrong with spurs.

So from your account it is only the garage wiring which is suspect. Even then to park a car and on the odd time use a battery charger to top up the cars battery the method used is likely ample.

Where it fails is when the car is parked on the drive and the garage becomes an office, workshop, food store, or laundry room and the power used clearly increases. Walk up my estate and very few garages are used for vehicles and when they are in the main it's motor bikes to be frank they are really too narrow for cars. You can drive them in but getting out of the door after is something else.

The housing estate was the start of many an electricians career. They move on as did my son now an electrical engineer for a large glass bottle manufacturer now with all the bits of paper required. Many of us I am sure look back and see a host of errors we made in the early days. Often the main builder did not do the electrics but subcontracted to local firm and there have been a list of reports where the builders have sacked the firm after finding substandard work. Site foreman may have realised but main office thought a good job was being done.

But today at least you do get the installation certificates and the complacence or completion certificate when my house was built all we got was the deeds which went to the building society for 25 years so never seen.

To cut to chase it does fit the job intended by builder, even if not the job you intend to use the building for.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

On a new installation I would say it is not "good workmanship" and is a cheap and shoddy job.

Compliant with the letter of the Regs though.

If you consider it not good workmanship then you consider it not compliant with the regulations.

 

[ericmark]

On a new installation I would say it is not "good workmanship" and is a cheap and shoddy job.

Compliant with the letter of the Regs though.

If you consider it not good workmanship then you consider it not compliant with the regulations.

A good point it should show a warranty of skill but in real terms how would you prove that to a court? If you can't prove it to a court then neither can to prove it to any one else.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That's true, it's an area beset with practical difficulties.

"Good workmanship" is always going to be a judgement call, it's always going to be one person's "expert opinion". I was just pointing out that if Owain is of the opinion that the work doesn't meet the standards of "good workmanship" then ipso facto he is also of the opinion that it does not comply with the Regulations.

 

[Kooga]

Just found another piece of carelessness. Downstairs mains breaker on upstairs RCD and vice versa which does not match the paperwork supplied by the electrician when the test was carried out. Both RCD's are 80A.
I am sure if I keep looking I could find more signs of sloppiness but if it is within the regs then it will be hard to argue.
Makes the regs a bit sloppy if the standards can be compromised.
Yes this is a new estate with many companies building 3500 houses so wiring the houses are routines and won't be long before it will be a robot doing it I expect. Still not an excuse for sloppy workmanship. Maybe the robots will do a better job. At least it would be consistent.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Downstairs mains breaker on upstairs RCD and vice versa which

Could you explain more please; that doesn't really make sense.

Circuits are protected by RCDs; they, themselves, cannot be 'upstairs' or 'downstairs'.