New heating system

[adamjseed]

Hi,

I have just bought a property where the heating system is very old and basically needs replacing. All the rads have burst and the boiler is about 30 years old.

I have some good quotes at replacing the whole system: new boiler, pipe work and rads.

The question im really trying answer is regarding smart/zone based heating. I'm a Computer Programmer and very interested in Nest. Basically a Nest thermostat connects to the boiler and/or Zone valves. So my question is around multizone heating, is it easy to implement? should the valves be in a central location or scatted around the house where needed? Is it over kill to Zone each bedroom?

I have looked at quite a few other system Heatmiester, evohome, etc but it seems better to do a quality zone based heating system and interface with that.

Anyother comments welcome.

 

[Agile]

It all depends on the size and design of the property.

By all means zone each room if you wish. A friend has 26 zones in his house and all under floor.

Most would say thats overkill though.

Most who know will also say a Nest is not very useful because it doe not modulate the CH flow temperature and so does not operate it at the highest efficiency.

Many will also say you should use weather compensation.

But as always its better to choose your installer and let him advise you.

Tony

 

[Dean744PiN5]

If you really wanted to zone each room, the best solution would be a manifold with electrothermic actuators (emmetti do a system like this) and using their wiring centre you can wire the nest heatlinks in to the system To control the actuator heads, might be expensive though depending on how many rooms you have.

 

[Plumber90]

In your standerd house you can't go wrong with 2 zones. One for upstairs and one for downstairs (living and sleeping).

 

[adamjseed]

Thanks for the response. @Agile are there any systems out there that you know of which take your points into consideration (temp modulation and weather)?

 

[Agile]

That is standard weather compensation.

Many boilers already have it built in or need a control module. It all depends on the brand of boiler that you choose.

But this is all something your chosen installer should be able to advise you about.

Tony

 

[Dean744PiN5]

Most boilers (not all) have weather compensation capabilities. Nest states that it has weather compensation but it is not true weather compensation. It just alters the time the heating comes on in relation to outside conditions and the algorithms it uses to determine how much time it takes to be your house up to temp.
I have fitted a few systems now with both an outside sensor for true weather comp and a nest thermostat, couldn't tell you exactly how well this works yet as won't really know until the cold kicks in.

 

[Dan Robinson]

We need more information on the quality of your house.

Insulation, construction, number of rooms, number of zones you THINK you need, number of zones that you REALLY need.



I do a lot of zone controls, and can assure you that with VERY few exceptions, people actually need far less zoning than they THINK they do.

Especially when costs start being taken in account.

One other big problem... with anything more than 2 MAYBE 3 zones, not having a central control panel becomes a big issue.


This is why I tend to use Honeywell Evo, or Nest (single/dual zone).

Ecohome is more versatile than you might think too.

 

[adamjseed]

Hi Dan,

Just as a bit of background my house is a 1980 5 bed detached farm house. Its solid wall construction with a solid floor. I'm looking at external wall insulation soon as well.

Down stairs rooms are: Lounge, kitchen, play room, study, utility room. Upstairs rooms are: 5x bedrooms and 2x bathrooms.

The house has quite a lot of external walls as its like a horse shoe shape. I would like per room zone but as you say would be mega expensive. I also work from home in the study and don't want the rest of the house heated really when I am at work.

I think my zones should be

1) Kitchen, lounge, playroom
2) Study
3) Utility (this would mainly be off)
4) Master bedroom
5) Child room 1
6) Child room 2
7) Guest room 1
8) Other bedroom
9) Bathrooms and corridors

But like I say I'm no expert and I'm just not sure what plan, hence this reach out.

I guess the big design consideration is to zone each room and then wire some zones together as the main cost is the controllers. That way I wouldn't need to repipe anything if i wanted to split the zone out at a later stage.

Im still not sure if I should get a manifold (and have serial piping) or put a zone valve (wired back to a central place) at the spur on a ring based design, any thoughts?

 

[Dan Robinson]

If doing from scratch then I would go with the manifold system as it makes it a modular thing. You can zone or not zone later.

Bathrooms and corridors shouldn't be zoned IMHO - or grouped together to form a core area that is on whenever a part of the system is on as well... This helps prevent the boiler short cycling.

Guest/spare bedrooms should be linked

If you are insulating the building then zoning is less of an issue and weather compensation is a better bet.

Heatmiser is a cost effective way of doing this all with wires and having a central panel. If hte place is being re piped, then throwing some cable in with the pipes is not a problem. Just remember to get a labelling system in place. Project I am trouble shooting on at the moment has 22 hard wired zones with wall embedded sensors and the doughnut that did the initial install didn't use consistent labelling or coloured/numbers of flex, so we have 5 core to one manifold, 2 x 4 core to the next and so on. It is a flirking nightmare, and costing the customer/architect dearly.

Evo is great but heavily dependant on wireless technology which needs to be site tested in your case to prove it works. Those of us that are equipped will have a transmitter and thermostat pre configured so that a site survey can include testing the signal quality.

I wish they would do a repeater unit for it as it would make some of the larger placed i deal with a doddle to set up.

I have Evo at home working with weather compensation and a mixture of rads and UFH.

 

[Norcon]

4 channel programmer. Upstairs, downstairs, study and HW and trv's on rads.
Simples.

Don't fit a load of nonsense gimmicks just because you don't like the thought of re-jigging the pipe work.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Yeah, thanks for that Norc

 

[ALEC1]

if you are a true fan of technology the system that wins hands down is a viessmann vitodens 200 with weather compensation and the control app.

Infinitely better than nest, you can alter all user parameters from your phone and tablet, and even emails your installer if there are errors that need sorting out.

Zoning is possible with viessmann but adds spectacularly to the cost, probably much more cost effective to judiciously use TRVs in rooms not used so much.

using boiler manufacturers compensation controls will give a better seamless performance over the standard stuff..and probably last a lot longer....boiler manufacturers have a big interest in you having a decent heating system..its the name of the boiler that gets the credit or blame if the system works or fails...

 

[Agile]

Is it really 1980 with solid walls???

More likely to be 1880 !

My 1860 cottage has solid walls as does my 1926 house!

Its best to add internal insulation n rooms like your office, bedroom and living room where you will spend much time.

Tony

 

[adamjseed]

sorry yes 1880