New light fitting

[KevinJackson]

Hi all. I have been looking on the forums lots for this query, but thought to now actually ask directly to be sure.

I am to replace a Class 2 Ikea spotlight on our dining room wall (plasterboard), and to install a 3-way pendant over the kitchen counter/island.

The new light fitting in Class 1, so needs Earth, but the Ikea spotlight only has Live/Neutral cable running to it, through the wall into a small downstairs toilet, which has a standard ceiling pendant plastic light fitting with plastic ceiling rose. The fittings are probably 3 feet apart max.

Can I run an Earth cable off of the existing toilet ceiling rose, through the ceiling/wall back to the current Ikea spot light, then I am good for the new light that needs Earth?

Would the Earth cable I run, just connect to the Earth in the toilet ceiling rose fitting?

Hopefully I am being clear, and thank you in advance.

Kevin

 

[ETAF]

do you know for sure that you do have an earth in the toilet ceiling rose

how is the ikea light connected at the toilet ???

 

[KevinJackson]

Hi ETAF. I have not looked at the ceiling rose just yet, this is all theory....

We had a small cupboard transformed into a very small toilet around 4 years ago, and when I asked the builder install a light into the toilet and have a double light switch control this and the Ikea spotlight, I remember him saying he can tap into the existing lighting ring.

Thinking about this, I do need to visually check if the cable from the Ikea spotlight actually comes into the ceiling rose.

If the ceiling rose has Earth, could I just feed off of that, back through the plastboard wall to where the spotlight is, to be changed to my new pendant light in your opinion? thank you.

 

[ETAF]

how old is the house - there is chance there is NO earth on the lighting circuit
i'm not 100% sure but i think lighting was supposed be earthed from the late 60's BUT i lived in a 70's build house and NO earth on lighting

could I just feed off of that, back through the plastboard wall to where the spotlight is, to be changed to my new pendant light in your opinion? thank you.

I do not know the regs in detail now , but i dont see why not , There are safe zones, so people have a good idea where cables maybe - Horizontally and vertically from a switch/socket/light etc , and where walls and ceilings join

Zones for Concealed Cables in Walls, BS7671 Wiring Regulations

Prescibed zones for cables concealed in walls as specified in BS7671 Wiring Regulations, previously known as Safe Zones

flameport.com

, so exactly where is the cable behind the plaster board

 

[KevinJackson]

House was built in 1982. I have changed lights around the house over the past 20 years of living there and Earth IS present, so quite confident I will find Earth in the small toilet ceiling rose.

I believe the builder placed the cable for the spotlight in the plasterboard, up into the ceiling and along to the toilet ceiling rose, but I will need to check this by tugging on the cable from the spotlight and seeing if the wires in the ceiling rose move.

I would try to pull through a new cable with Earth, where the existing cables runs, which should solve things for me. I am just worried that the cable is not free moving, and stops me doing this. I will be checking tomorrow when at home in the daylight.

Thank you!

 

[ETAF]

is there earth in the cable he used , i would have expected it to be Twin&earth cable which an electician would/should have reels of in van , and so surprised if he used just 2 cable wire - maybe the earth bare wire is just cut back under outer sleeving

 

[KevinJackson]

I am confident he used the existing cable which was connected to the Ikea spotlight, which does not have earth. This same light used to be plugged into the mains, and as it is Class 2 and has no Earth.

If he changed it to Twin&Earth, I am home dry...... fingers crossed.....

 

[ericmark]

Since 1966 it has been required to run and terminate an earth to any lamp not a pendent, and even before then lights which were not filament lamps needed an earth.

So if some one has clearly broke the rules, then you would need to test to ensure there is a valid earth you can connect to.

But in real terms likely the earth you have found is valid, and personally I would take a chance, as I always switch off to change a bulb.

 

[KevinJackson]

Update

Inspected both the Ikea light fitting and the toilet ceiling rose.

The Ikea wiring is only Neutral/Live and is the original OEM wiring used with that Ikea light. When pulling the cable, it sounds like it is joined in something within the ceiling of the toilet, as I can hear a like small plastic box moving around.

The toilet celing rose, has traditional in and out to the next ceiling rose, Neutral/Live/Earth x 2 only, with the pendant light coming off hanging.

I'm not sure I can do anything. Getting above this from upstairs is pretty much a no no, as it is a bathroom with a tiled floor.

An option of an idea I have, but would need to sound this out is..... Could I cut a larger hole in toilet ceiling around the ceiling rose, which could be covered with a plastic ceiling rose trim later, and get an earth off of the ceiling rose and back through the wall to the Ikea wiring some how?

Or does the Neutral/Live & Earth need to come from the same source and not split?

Thanks

 

[Murdochcat]

Sadly there are too many people who cut the CPC off for class 2 lights, rather than terminate them properly.

Carefully remove the existing light and look at the cable in the ceiling

 

[KevinJackson]

Well I think I have done it

Removed the ceiling rose in toilet and made a 4" + hole in plasterboard ceiling. There is only about 3" gap above this, so needed to have phone on video with light to see what is what.

Right at the back against wall, I could see a small wrapped blocked (black tape), sure enough wiggled Ikea light cable and it moved (yes!)

So, I got a hook and whilst on video phone, I pulled it over to me and could see it was crudely put together connection blocks, with EARTH!!

So, I removed this malarkey and installed by new trusty Wago 2-way blocks for earth Neutral, Live and Earth for each. Then I got a Twin&Earth spare piece of cable and superglued it to my existing twin core/Ikea cable, and pulled in through the ceiling void, down and out of wall, it worked!!

I have put everything back together but left the Ikea light off, just waiting for new shades to come, then I will install new light.

I have left the Neutral, Live & Earth in seperate Wago connectors, then covered in a bag, to keep it off limits for now, plus it is 7 feet up on wall and no one else can reach it.

I think a ceiling rose surround is in order to cover my hack of a hole

Thanks everyone!

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Hopefully the Wagos in the ceiling are enclosed in the proper maintenance free box.