New windows fitted and now alarm won't set.

[RigidRaider]

Our lounge has two PIRs and until yesterday had two reed contacts in the frames of two small windows at floor level. All four feed into the same contact on the board. Yesterday new full-length windows were fitted, the fitter doesn't remember seeing any wires as he pulled out the old frames and presumably the two circuits are now open because the entire lounge is showing a fault.

Since the PIRs are closer to the board than the old window contacts, RR Junior thinks the alarm fitter may have brought the cables into the PIRs and joined them to the circuits there. We will open the PIRs for a look tonight but if that's not what we find..... anybody else got any bright ideas? The new windows are in and the bedroom upstairs has fitted carpet so I'm reluctant to lift the floor.

Can we retro-fit wireless PIRs to the system?

 

[EightyTwo]

You're in trouble!!

RR Junior might be right. If all four devices were on the same zone, there's a good chance that the cable comes from the panel (main control box) and goes in and out of each one until it gets to the end. If both your PIRs have a cable going in and out, you can probably remove one of the 'outs' and abandon the rest of the cable.

Let us know what you find. If you can't sort it, take pictures or tell us the colours and terminal connections and we'll try and help you out.

You can retrofit radio PIRs but they are expensive 'cos you may need a receiver for each PIR and have all the disadvantages of radio...

 

[RigidRaider]

Hi, RR Jr. here.

I checked the PIRs a few days ago but only found one wire coming into each.

Dad and I lifted a floorboard and weren't able to make any sense of the mass of cables. The whole lounge zone must be wired in series so that any circuit on that zone being opened would trigger the alarm.

The problem we have is that there's obviously a junction box elsewhere that we can't acess, most likely under the floorboards of the room above the lounge.

Time to call a professional who will have a few tricks up his sleeve, I think.

 

[EightyTwo]

The cables may all go back to the control panel and the series connections may be done in there with a load of choc block. It's a shame that the installer didn't use an expander thingy and put each detector on its own zone! That would have made life a lot easier...

You may find a little junction box somewhere. It could be about 2" square and 1/2" thick with two screws on the front or it may be a bit bigger, say 5" x 3" x 1 1/2" with the long edges radiused, also with two lid screws. I guess that there are many other possibilities but these are common alarm JBs.

Good luck.

 

[catengineman]

Hi, RR Jr. here.

I checked the PIRs a few days ago but only found one wire coming into each.

Dad and I lifted a floorboard and weren't able to make any sense of the mass of cables. The whole lounge zone must be wired in series so that any circuit on that zone being opened would trigger the alarm.

The problem we have is that there's obviously a junction box elsewhere that we can't acess, most likely under the floorboards of the room above the lounge.

Time to call a professional who will have a few tricks up his sleeve, I think.

If your able to gain entry to the control panel then you can trace the relevant fault to the zone (most installers use the same colour for mag switch +/-- and again for anti tamper.
Is your fault showing a tamper?
Is your fault showing zone alarm (window/door open)
once this is known you can if it is a zone *open* then that zone can have a bridge put between the two terminals and then it will not be read by the system.
If it is a tamper fault then you need a multimeter to check for continuity on the mass of AT wires which will be in series but traceable to the pairs of each cable they come from
All do-able by a patient and logical thinking person.

Richard

 

[RigidRaider]

Thanks; it's a open circuit or zone. If we bridge the terminal for that zone, won't we lose the lounge zone? At the moment we are setting the alarm by omitting that zone but I'd like to get it sorted out. I think we are going to need to identify the cable, cut it and re-cable the PIR nearest to the panel, abandoning the second, further PIR.

 

[Lordy9099]

Thanks; it's a open circuit or zone. If we bridge the terminal for that zone, won't we lose the lounge zone? At the moment we are setting the alarm by omitting that zone but I'd like to get it sorted out. I think we are going to need to identify the cable, cut it and re-cable the PIR nearest to the panel, abandoning the second, further PIR.

Hold on there, before you start cutting cables and start further faults, when this replaced the windows they likely rewired the window contacts incorrectly or damaged part of the cable, could you take a photo of the contacts on the windows and if you could open it up and take a photo of the wiring, be aware that the alarm may go into tamper when you take the cover off the contact type your code it and it should silence the alarm but another thing, when you have silenced it and you will not be able to use the keypad whilst the cover is off, and it may go off again when you replace the cover, just type your code in again and it will then silence and your keypad will become responsive again and will stop locking out.

 

[catengineman]

The PIR should be on their own but if by chance they are wired so that the signal is also used as a trigger from the magnetic contact (most unlikely) th only common in the system should be the anti tamper circuit which will show up as just that a TAMPER
When you used to *part set* were the windows alarmed yet the pir in the room did not trigger any alarms, this would point to the PIR and the magnetic contacts being on different trigger systems.
So when you OMIT the lounge your able to set the alarm which says to me that there is a easy fix once you locate the exact cause of the fault.
Is it through Tamper or is it from one or both PIR that you mention

 

[Lordy9099]

Unless the tamper circuit has not been connected then which the tamper fault will not activate ???

 

[catengineman]

To count out the tamper circuit it can be bridged out so that non of the tamper circuit is working then if the alarm system arms as normal it will be a fault (open circuit) on the tamper circuit.
If there is no change and there is still *fault* then the zone in question can be traced to the zone terminals in the control panel and also bridged so that the set of the system can be tested.
If a normal arm is effected then with the aid of a multimeter the wire run to that zone trigger unit can be checked from the control panel to that unit, there may be an option to substitute the wires to the unit (ie: remove the tamper circuit in favour of the PIR trigger and power) if there is say one leg of the wire broken then that leg can be substituted for one from the tamper as this could be one way to over come that broken wire problem. rather than having to run a new wire which may need to have boards and plaster removed

 

[Lordy9099]

Although it is not a good idea to bridge the tamper circuit unless absolutely necessary (such as if you get a tamper fault in the middle of the night) best thing is take a photo of the circuit board and wiring and let us have a look and check they are wired up correctly.

 

[catengineman]

From my reading of the postings I believe the system was working OK before some casement windows were replaced where the tenant did not see the builder make good any wires or connections to alarm units.
My line of assistance is to aid the location of a fault, be it in Tamper or signal to control panel. This in itself would not in y view be a final fix for this problem but an aid to finding out what and possibly where the fault is located.Once the distinction between signal or circuitry fault is ascertained then further work can be carried out to enable a return to a fully working system without to much cost to the owner tenant of the property in question.
My suggestion to isolate the tamper to the two PIR (internal units) is one way to eliminate that from the fault finding tree, this would not remove the tamper form any other unit so still leaving the system with the tamper protection.

Richard

 

[Lordy9099]

Though if there was a tamper fault then he would not even be able to set the system because it would go into tamper lockout. Are the lights on the contacts lighting up? and any PIR's on that zone?

 

[catengineman]

Reading I see 2 PIR and 2 magnetic for the lounge (first post from the person)
There is now a fault and the owner did not see any work on the original mag contacts so can not say that they are now fitted to the new windows
If the builder has crossed wires or even left bad terminations to the old mag contacts this is not know but I am trying to assist in the locating of fault where ever it may be.

 

[Lordy9099]

So if one cable between each sensor is damaged then this in turn will cause problems like the system not setting... But I do agree that we need more information to find the exact location of the fault