NICEIC completion certification

[Bob49]

Hello,

As mentioned in another thread I had an extension built in 2011 and have a NICEIC domestic electrical installation certificate. Which was given to building control and then I received a building control completion certificate for the extension.

Someone's comment about my certificate being invalid got me wondering so I have looked into it.

I can't find the contractor in the NICEIC list here, but it was 8 years ago.

https://www.niceic.com/householder/find-a-contractor

Also my address does not come up here:

http://www.checkmynotification.com/


My certificate is like this:

So what would be the reasons why it doesn't appear at http://www.checkmynotification.com/

Thanks,

Bob

 

[JohnW2]

... have a NICEIC domestic electrical installation certificate. Which was given to building control and then I received a building control completion certificate for the extension. .... Someone's comment about my certificate being invalid got me wondering so I have looked into it.

I don't fully understand what the problem is. If BC sent you a completion certificate, then the electrician must have notified the work to them in the correct fashion, and you have the completion certificate.

The EIC, as you illustrate, is separate from the notification process, and is something (or the 'minor works' equivalent, where appropriate) which an electrician should provide directly to the customer in relation to any electrical work (even if not notifiable).

.So what would be the reasons why it doesn't appear at http://www.checkmynotification.com/

Bureaucratic/technological mess-up, incorrectly typed address etc.? As above, if you received a completion cert from BC, the work must have been notified correctly, even if you can't find evidence on the website. If you're concerned, wave your completion cert at BC and ask them why it's not on the website.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I tried to get a replacement completion certificate for my old house, it transpires it would take 6 months and cost was how long it would take them to find it, seems buyer were not really bothered, and then found old certificate, however it means in real terms if I say I have lost it, no one can prove it was never issued.

As to the installation certificate, can't see how it can ever be invalid? The IET (was IEE) has forms for down load on their web site, and anyone can complete an installation certificate there is no requirement to be in any scheme, if a scheme member then you would get a compliance certificate which I assume is linked in some way to the installation certificate, however since you have a completion certificate there would have been no requirement for the installation certificate to be linked to a compliance certificate, nor would it be held by any scheme operator, the county council would be the only people who would validate it.

Having gone through the completion certificate route, I was surprised to find my copy of the installation certificate was not endorsed in any way, only way to show what the completion certificate relates to would to be getting a copy from LABC and as said I failed to be able to get copies from them. So I could fill in a certificate today from records kept on my PC, and could include anything I wanted and there is it seems no way of saying if the installation and completion certificates actually relate to each other.

I had no need to cheat, whole house got rewired after I had done work on wet room, however it became very clear I could have done, only way to ensure some one has not cheated is to get copy from the council, and since the council never visited to check my work, even that is a bit useless, then and now they only have my word for it, that it was OK.

I am sure if there was a death due to faulty wiring then they would find out the original, however house was covered by three certificates, kitchen, wet room, and rest, so it would be near impossible to show who made the errors anyway.

Only way an installation certificate can be invalid is signature missing, the death of Emma Shaw says how the electricians mates name was entered on the typed copy of the certificate, and it is clear he did not sign it, it was typed in, been some time since I have read through the report, but clearly the HSE went to great lengths to find the truth, and it really did not matter what was on paperwork, they worked out who had done what, from electrician who installed the cables, to plaster who damaged cables, to electricians mate who made a botched job of testing cables, to plumber who failed to glue tun-dish, and electrical foreman who sent the electricians mate to do testing. They got the whole story, and this was before 17th Edition came in, so at that time no RCD protection, done 2006.

But if I got a scrap of paper and simply wrote on it wiring done Dec 2004 to 16th Edition and signed it, i.e. the bill, it is still technically an installation certificate, not a very good one, but there is no law to say one even has to be made out, so it can hardly become invalid, all the law needs is the completion certificate.

When Part P came out I expected the LABC to follow the industry standard and issue permits to work, and endorse the home owners copy of the installation certificate with a unique number and reference to completion certificate with a LABC stamp seen and approved or similar, however it became clear it is nothing more than a tax.

It seems LA social services are taken to task for not looking after baby X, but LA building control seem to be able to blame any faults on the builder, you watch builders from hell, and one thinks why did the LABC allow it to happen, they are paid good money to over see the building work, but seem to get away with it if they miss some thing, even massive mistakes where whole housing estate built 4 foot too low, so when culvert blocked houses flooded before the water could find an alternative route over the road, in spite of the requirement being on the plans. 6" maybe simple error, but 4 foot too low, clearly never checked.

So what did the person said made the installation certificate invalid?

 

[Bob49]

Thanks,

It

I tried to get a replacement completion certificate for my old house, it transpires it would take 6 months and cost was how long it would take them to find it, seems buyer were not really bothered, and then found old certificate, however it means in real terms if I say I have lost it, no one can prove it was never issued.

As to the installation certificate, can't see how it can ever be invalid? The IET (was IEE) has forms for down load on their web site, and anyone can complete an installation certificate there is no requirement to be in any scheme, if a scheme member then you would get a compliance certificate which I assume is linked in some way to the installation certificate, however since you have a completion certificate there would have been no requirement for the installation certificate to be linked to a compliance certificate, nor would it be held by any scheme operator, the county council would be the only people who would validate it.

Having gone through the completion certificate route, I was surprised to find my copy of the installation certificate was not endorsed in any way, only way to show what the completion certificate relates to would to be getting a copy from LABC and as said I failed to be able to get copies from them. So I could fill in a certificate today from records kept on my PC, and could include anything I wanted and there is it seems no way of saying if the installation and completion certificates actually relate to each other.

I had no need to cheat, whole house got rewired after I had done work on wet room, however it became very clear I could have done, only way to ensure some one has not cheated is to get copy from the council, and since the council never visited to check my work, even that is a bit useless, then and now they only have my word for it, that it was OK.

I am sure if there was a death due to faulty wiring then they would find out the original, however house was covered by three certificates, kitchen, wet room, and rest, so it would be near impossible to show who made the errors anyway.

Only way an installation certificate can be invalid is signature missing, the death of Emma Shaw says how the electricians mates name was entered on the typed copy of the certificate, and it is clear he did not sign it, it was typed in, been some time since I have read through the report, but clearly the HSE went to great lengths to find the truth, and it really did not matter what was on paperwork, they worked out who had done what, from electrician who installed the cables, to plaster who damaged cables, to electricians mate who made a botched job of testing cables, to plumber who failed to glue tun-dish, and electrical foreman who sent the electricians mate to do testing. They got the whole story, and this was before 17th Edition came in, so at that time no RCD protection, done 2006.

But if I got a scrap of paper and simply wrote on it wiring done Dec 2004 to 16th Edition and signed it, i.e. the bill, it is still technically an installation certificate, not a very good one, but there is no law to say one even has to be made out, so it can hardly become invalid, all the law needs is the completion certificate.

When Part P came out I expected the LABC to follow the industry standard and issue permits to work, and endorse the home owners copy of the installation certificate with a unique number and reference to completion certificate with a LABC stamp seen and approved or similar, however it became clear it is nothing more than a tax.

It seems LA social services are taken to task for not looking after baby X, but LA building control seem to be able to blame any faults on the builder, you watch builders from hell, and one thinks why did the LABC allow it to happen, they are paid good money to over see the building work, but seem to get away with it if they miss some thing, even massive mistakes where whole housing estate built 4 foot too low, so when culvert blocked houses flooded before the water could find an alternative route over the road, in spite of the requirement being on the plans. 6" maybe simple error, but 4 foot too low, clearly never checked.

So what did the person said made the installation certificate invalid?

Thanks, it's in this thread here:

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/joiner-drilled-through-cable.537488/

Basically he said it's invalid as the person who did the testing did not do the actual work.

 

[JohnW2]

Basically he said it's invalid as the person who did the testing did not do the actual work.

If the person who signed the declaration that he had 'done the actual work' had not done that work, he was obviously lying, hence effectively making the certificate 'invalid'. However, as I've said, if BC were satisfied with the notification and issued a completion certificate, I don't really understand what the problem is.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Bob49]

Thanks

 

[ericmark]

Thank you for link, the question now makes more sense. In light of new information.

1) In the approved Part P document it makes it very clear there is no requirement for the LABC to issue an installation certificate, any installation certificate or electrical installation condition report which the LABC commission to ensure site safety before the completion certificate is issued is for internal use by the LABC and is not always passed to the owner, all he needs is the completion certificate.

2) It does not state that the installation certificate must be issued by the person doing the work, it must be issued by the person in control of the work. I know it seems to be splitting hairs, but if the electrician had an apprentice, or in fact if there were 6 electricians doing the work, only the guy in control would sign the installation certificate.

So the installation certificate is valid it seems, as the guy signing was in control.

 

[Risteard]

2) It does not state that the installation certificate must be issued by the person doing the work, it must be issued by the person in control of the work. I know it seems to be splitting hairs, but if the electrician had an apprentice, or in fact if there were 6 electricians doing the work, only the guy in control would sign the installation certificate.

So the installation certificate is valid it seems, as the guy signing was in control.

Rubbish, because it very clearly breaches the Rules of the NICEIC. Given that an NICEIC certificate was issued it is a fundamental requirement that this only be issued in full compliance with the requirements of that organisation.

 

[ericmark]

If a IET certificate is issued, it does not have to comply with all IET rules, so one would need to read very carefully to see if anywhere on the certificate it states it must only be issued by NICEIC members and exactly what their rules were in 2011. I think you may be correct, however I also seem to remember having a pad of NICEIC certificates and I have never been a member, never used them as preferred the IET versions, only a member of the NICEIC would know what the rules are.

Seem to remember some court cases where people claimed to be scheme members and were not, but you can be a member of the NICEIC without being a scheme member, so not sure on who can use their paperwork.

However fact remains you don't need an installation certificate, only the completion certificate is legal requirement, and seem odd if the electrician was a scheme member that a completion certificate rather than a compliance certificate was issued, so possibly he was not a scheme member?

 

[JohnW2]

If a IET certificate is issued, it does not have to comply with all IET rules, so one would need to read very carefully to see if anywhere on the certificate it states it must only be issued by NICEIC members and exactly what their rules were in 2011.

It was not an "IET Certificate" that was issued, it was a NICEIC one, presumably only available to NICEIC members who have agreed to abide by the rules of membership.

Kind Regards, John