No RCD on Cooker circuit, with Remote (Accessible) double socket?

[Phoebe.uk]

I'm in a bit of a bind. I'm currently in Temporary Local Authority owned housing [In Scotland], But been told That I could easily be here for upto 2years. Hence why I'm even bothering to investigate this matter further.

I am a time served Technician/Electrician. I only lack the official Qualifications, But my work has always been Signed off & Tested post Install, [With photos & Write-ups provided the whole way through] By a Certified sparky that shadowed me on a couple of installs back in the early days, to get a feel of MY Competency.
I try to keep up-to-date, and Currently own 16th, 17th And now 18th {+A2:2022} Regs, Plus the various Additional Guides (on-site, Guide to building Regs, and Guide to temporary Installations, etc), And my installs are Always, over and above what is expected. For which I refuse to do any less (Autism thing).

The property that I've been placed in, is presumably Post 2nd war (Has Cavity walls). I also discovered that the previous workies had kindly dumped all their electrical waste [and all other building waste] under the floor boards. {I did find the Original MK & Crabtree Bakelite toggle switches under there}.

The CU is setup split load (Non-RCD & RCD). {Lighting, Boiler, Smoke detectors and Cooker on the NON-RCD Side}
The kitchen is the only Room that appears to have had a rewire, since the Colours changed in 2004/6 But the rewire ONLY extends upto the 1st & last points of It's ring.
This is the same for the cooker circuit. Except that unlike the original lighting circuits, There is is NO steel conduit at any point in the run. . .

Based on the evidence found under the floor. The current setup is it's 2nd or 3rd rewire. But given that everything else [Bar the carbon monoxide detector in the kitchen] is still wired in old colours. Who knows Just how old it all actually is since the Lead, and clothed cables were removed (only small remnants of them were each found).

So, the Issue. The cocker circuit has had a semi-fresh rewire at some point in its life. Now given that its wired in 'new colours' Then it MUST come under either the 17th or the 18th Regs. Yet it's install does Not meet one or more of the requirements as stated in either Revision. . . ! There is NO Steel/Earth conduit, There is NO Earthed Metallic Sheath, and there is NO RCD or RCBO Protection for it's circuit.
Atop of this, there is a Remote Double socket also attached to the circuit, directly beside the cooker outlet , This of which is easily accessed by an 'Ordinary person'.

Via 'TLC' weblinks (as I don't have a camera) This is how the setup has been wired:

Wylex 32A MCB (From the Isolator) = https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNHXB32.html {Seemingly its all in 6mm T+E}
\/
Cooker Switch = https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CB4016slash3.html
\/
DBL + SGL Flush metal back box = https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/AP540.html
\/
DP DBL Socket = https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CB4306D.html
\/
Cooker Outlet plate = https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CB4506.html

Now Logic, (IF your were ever going to wire such a setup) would tell you to wire up the outlet with the highest Expected load first. But no! the cooker spur Piggybacks of the DBL socket, which as a result, The socket has 2x 6mm cores stuffed into the back of each terminal!

I have raised this already with the councils Repairs department, and had one of their sparkies out. And they argue that the setup is perfectly fine, and has passed all of it's Inspections. Including "having been tested on a special machine, that tells them that the circuits are up to code". . yeah. well that machine is clearly faulty given all the issues that I've discovered so far . . .!
They argue that this DBD SKT is required for a Gas hob, for the ignition circuit. Yet its a freestanding cooker. Without gas even run to it in the first place. For which If their argument was Legit. Then I would expect to see a fused Spur beside the Cooker spur for Such a very purpose. NOT a DBL SKT!

Both my own experience, and the Regs tell me That they're talking garbage. And are trying to get out of having to rectify this issue [And likely all the other properties that they've done the same way]. - For starters. I cannot find Anywhere [in the domestic setting] the mention of a remote 13A socket on a cooker circuit. Let alone a Double socket. Everything refers to a Single socket as part of a cooker switch unit, and to factor in 5A for it, when calculating the load diversity.

Secondly, The T+E cable Is Not buried more than 50mm, and as I mentioned at the start. There's no Earthed conduit or Earthed Metallic Sheath, at any point in its run, Nor even an RCD or RCBO protecting it.

And while Yes. I do know how to keep myself safe, or I could rewire it myself. - But at the end of the Day a) the next resident is very unlikely to have the same knowledge that I have, And b) I'm not supposed to be altering any of it in the first place as its still a local authority property and I'm Not a permanent resident of.

As it stands. They Refuse to rectify it, and I Refuse to use the cooker (That is also awaiting replacement too, as previous residents Both Human & Rodent. Neglected to care for the appliance. . .)

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _

My hope, is that someone out there has come across this before, and can direct me to Any Requirements, Rules, etc so that I can force their hand into doing this remedial work. . .
Somewhere in my mind, I seem to recall that Certain Properties (Hospitals, Care homes, rentals, etc)are required to keep Electrical [and Gas] systems upto date with the current regulations. But I cannot find this information at this time :/

Thanks Gals & Guys

 

[Murdochcat]

Not your home so you have no right to touch it or alter it in ANY way

 

[ericmark]

I do not know Scottish law for rented property. But since an LA rent, unlikely to get the LABC to do anything to get things changed. If you have the books, you know what matters is the design date, not the installation date, so wiring colours don't tell you when designed.

However, why are you worried about not having RCD protection, unless you play with things, unlikely to get a shock as a result of no RCD. I know my house no RCD on the supply to the boiler, I did look at fitting an RCD FCU, but it tripped, so removed again, I did a risk assessment, what is the largest risk, getting cold as RCD tripped and house cold, or touching something which is live on the central heating, there are no mains powered central heating items upstairs in main house, so highly unlikely I will touch any central heating item which has gone live. So better off having no RCD protection.
So I can test a socket, both for loop impedance and if RCD works, and can test any background leakage, ⁣ but does it really matter? Unless I go poking about, I am unlikely to have any problems, and OK I own this house, so I can poke about, but if I rented I can't really look inside the consumer unit, so the only way I can say "this socket is not RCD protected." is to say I have tested with xy or z meter, and it has failed.

If I was your landlord, my response would be if you don't want the property, I will not stop you moving. Where is changes is where one is looking after children or others who have not got the ability to look after themselves, I felt worried about my son, who got his RAE at 14 years old, so I fitted RCD protection, but that was up to me, as the house was mine, so Scottish law may help you, but why do you want the RCD protection?

 

[Phoebe.uk]

Every install I've done, Everything has either had RCD or it's own RCBO Protection. Including Boilers, Cookers and anything else you can think off. The only times that I've not, is for Double insulated Power supplies that are close coupled to the CU or DB. Such as doorbell Transformers. Or anything that is Supplied from SWA that doesn't require it. Such as an outhouse, that has it's own CU.
I always err on the What if, Rather than the Ach it'll be fine.

Most of my installs have been on commercial systems. In Hotels, Theatres & nightclubs. Where you're better being safe than sorry. Usually I'll fit Hager Panels (Such as these = https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_I...chgear_Index/Hager_TP_and_N_Boards/index.html ) where there isn't really the option of using a global RCD. Unless you wish to use it on the Whole Panel.
Plus Nuisance tripping is rare, when Every appliance, Room, Zone, etc is on its own Radial that's protected by it's own RCBO.

But the point in Question. Is that the Current setup. Does NOT meet what the Regs are saying. And that is what I'm trying to resolve. . .

 

[pete01]

If the feed cable is surface mounted it wouldn't require rcd protection to the cooker.

The socket obviously would but just don't mow the grass using that socket

 

[Phoebe.uk]

The problem is, is that these properties often have young mothers/fathers/Couples in them, [and young children], It's a two bed, of which the surrounding properties have 2x adults and 1-4 under 18's living within them. Very quickly, That DBL SKT would be utilised by someone that doesn't know any better.
The Socket Is only 200mm below the Counter Height, and the Freestanding cooker is NOT Fixed into place. Plus, due to all the 'guff' that runs along the wall at floor level, this prevents the cooker from being pushed back any further. Therefore it is very easily reached by an ordinary person.

In this kitchen. there are only 3x double sockets above counter height, and One spare, Spurred Single SKT behind the under counter Bin area, All other Switch Spurs feed an appliance or Fan of some description.

Whilst the housing market is a mess, the change of hands of this property is much less than the Council would like. But I'd rather address these issues whilst I AM Here. So that IF, something in the future were to ever go Wrong. Then At-least there are adequate protection measures in place. . .

 

[flameport]

Now given that its wired in 'new colours' Then it MUST come under either the 17th or the 18th Regs.

Not correct.
Cable in 'new' colours and the option of using it started in April 2004.
Use of new colours was mandatory from April 2006.
The 17th edition was effective from July 2008.

They argue that this DBD SKT is required for a Gas hob, for the ignition circuit. Yet its a freestanding cooker. Without gas even run to it in the first place. For which If their argument was Legit. Then I would expect to see a fused Spur beside the Cooker spur for Such a very purpose. NOT a DBL SKT!

That will be a specific requirement of the design for the electrical installation in their properties. Unrelated to what BS7671 contains.

Secondly, The T+E cable Is Not buried more than 50mm, and as I mentioned at the start. There's no Earthed conduit or Earthed Metallic Sheath, at any point in its run, Nor even an RCD or RCBO protecting it.

If installed after July 2008, cables in a wall at a depth of less than 50mm would require RCD protection, or be installed inside earthed steel conduit or equivalent.
Neither RCDs, steel conduit or anything similar was required before 2008.

there is a Remote Double socket also attached to the circuit, directly beside the cooker outlet , This of which is easily accessed by an 'Ordinary person'.

That might have required an RCD at the time of installation.
If under the 16th edition, no RCD required
For the 17th, most socket outlets required RCDs but those for a specific purpose (such as the oven/hob/ignition or whatever) did not.
For the 18th, RCD required for all of them.

My hope, is that someone out there has come across this before, and can direct me to Any Requirements, Rules, etc so that I can force their hand into doing this remedial work. . .

Not going to happen.
You are getting bent out of shape over what at worst would be a minor non-compliance with BS7671, and depending on what was installed and when, there may not be a problem at all.

 

[Phoebe.uk]

Hmm Interesting. Looks like I'm going to have to do some more investigating to find out When the Kitchen wiring was Changed. Cheers for the 'Flameport'

 

[Agile]

I have always thought that all properties installed since 2004 needed an RCD to all circuits in a kitchen or bathroom.

But that there is no requirement ( at the moment ) to bring them up to the current standards.

 

[ericmark]

If an installation was designed in 2006 but not completed until 2010 it would only need to comply with BS7671:2001 not BS7671:2008, even when the installation certificate is not made out until 2010. Remember

114.1 The Regulations are non-statutory. They may, however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory requirement.

in the main changes are made either to comply with CENELEC or to clarify what has been said before.

With a job like the building of T5 Heathrow, it would be a nightmare if the plans needed changing halfway through, remember the same regulations cover commercial and domestic.

In the main, councils do a refurbish schedule, and do not upgrade while the property is occupied, I know my son was involved with one, and all had to be to standard, so if someone had swapped a light fitting for a beautiful chandelier not only was it thrown in the bin, but the tenant was charged for the work to return it to standard. But that batch of homes will all be upgraded to the same standard and the electricians will be told exactly what is required, then it will likely stay that way for another 20/25 years.

Private homes are very different, the owner may install batteries, solar panels, EV charging points, etc. Getting the council to agree to things like that are hard. Here the council fitted 6 EV charging points, in a common car park, and tenants told if they want to charge their EV's they can use those points, on street parking not permitted.

So the tenants are paying over the top for electric, and have been forced to use electric heating etc. And non council lets are few and far between, the only option is to use mobile homes, which means most of the building regulations don't apply as not buildings.

I agree, young parents don't seem to be able to control their children, and I accept this may be in part due to no smacking rules, but I did not have any RCD's when I was a child, and I am still here.

 

[plugwash]

I have always thought that all properties installed since 2004 needed an RCD to all circuits in a kitchen or bathroom.

I'm pretty sure someone is getting their wires crossed there.

All part P legally required is "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design
and installation of electrical installations in order toand installation of electrical installations in order to
protect persons operating, maintaining or altering theprotect persons operating, maintaining or altering the
installations from fire or injury.installations from fire or injury"

Now of course, that is not very helpful practically, who gets to define what is reasonable. In practice the government guidance was to follow the 16 edition of BS7671.

The 16th edition only required RCDs in fairly specific scenarios. The one most commonly encountered in a domestic property being "sockets reasonablly expected to power equipment outside the equipoential zone (aka outdoors). I think there may have been some requirements for certain bathroom-related situations too, but there certainly wasn't a blanket requirement for stuff in bathrooms or kitchens to be RCD protected. In particular electric showers were NOT required to be RCD protected under the 16th edition.

Afaict BS7671 has never made specific provisions for kitchens, though the notification requirements did,

But that there is no requirement ( at the moment ) to bring them up to the current standards.

In England, private rented properties are required to have electrical inspections. The law isn't particuarly well drafted but the practical intepretation of it has been that you need to get a "satisfactory" EICR, which means no C1 or C2 codes. There are unfortunately no official rules on what code each defect should get but there is industry guidance. In particular the following RCD-related defects are given a C2 in the guidance

"Absence of additional protection by an RCD for mobile
equipment that may reasonably be expected to be used
outdoors"

"The main RCD for the installation or voltage-operated earth-
leakage circuit-breaker on a TT system fails to operate when
tested with an instrument or integral test button"

"Absence of additional protection by RCD for a circuit supplying
a socket-outlet in a location containing a bath or shower in
accordance with Regulation 701.512.3"

For owner-occupied properties there are no such requirements.

I have no idea about the legal situation in other countries of the UK.

 

[Risteard]

I'm pretty sure someone is getting their wires crossed there.

All part P legally required is "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design
and installation of electrical installations in order toand installation of electrical installations in order to
protect persons operating, maintaining or altering theprotect persons operating, maintaining or altering the
installations from fire or injury.installations from fire or injury"

Now of course, that is not very helpful practically, who gets to define what is reasonable. In practice the government guidance was to follow the 16 edition of BS7671.

The 16th edition only required RCDs in fairly specific scenarios. The one most commonly encountered in a domestic property being "sockets reasonablly expected to power equipment outside the equipoential zone (aka outdoors). I think there may have been some requirements for certain bathroom-related situations too, but there certainly wasn't a blanket requirement for stuff in bathrooms or kitchens to be RCD protected. In particular electric showers were NOT required to be RCD protected under the 16th edition.

Afaict BS7671 has never made specific provisions for kitchens, though the notification requirements did,


In England, private rented properties are required to have electrical inspections. The law isn't particuarly well drafted but the practical intepretation of it has been that you need to get a "satisfactory" EICR, which means no C1 or C2 codes. There are unfortunately no official rules on what code each defect should get but there is industry guidance. In particular the following RCD-related defects are given a C2 in the guidance

"Absence of additional protection by an RCD for mobile
equipment that may reasonably be expected to be used
outdoors"

"The main RCD for the installation or voltage-operated earth-
leakage circuit-breaker on a TT system fails to operate when
tested with an instrument or integral test button"

"Absence of additional protection by RCD for a circuit supplying
a socket-outlet in a location containing a bath or shower in
accordance with Regulation 701.512.3"

For owner-occupied properties there are no such requirements.

I have no idea about the legal situation in other countries of the UK.

The 16th Edition had no RCD requirements for bathrooms (though protecting electric showers wasn't uncommon). The 17th Edition brought in the bathroom RCD requirements. However supplementary equipotential bonding was mandatory under the 16th Edition. (Back when we used to call ADS EEBAD).

 

[ericmark]

The 17th edition allowed less bonding in a bathroom, as long as RCD protected, 701.415.2 Supplementary equipotential bonding was the regulation often quoted, as you had an either/or situation. Today, the use of plastic pipe fittings means hard to ensure bonding is in place, but 701.411.3.3 Additional protection by RCDs note "Additional" warned NOTE: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.2.4 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping.

The big problem was lights, the aim with the old 2 RCD consumer unit was to have lights and sockets split, and no room had lights and sockets on the same RCD, however best split for sockets is side to side of the house, as more even load, less cable used so better loop impedance, and if one circuit failed, no temptation to run extension cables up/downstairs. But lights were often split up/down, if split at all, often when split it was not originally wired that way, so common to find a borrowed neutral situation with stairs lighting.

So 314.1(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation, and 531.2.4 An RCD shall be so selected and the electrical circuits so subdivided that any protective conductor current which may be expected to occur during normal operation of the connected load(s) will be unlikely to cause unnecessary tripping of the device. Became a problem until the general role out of RCBO's.

We are told no more than 30% of the RCD rating shall be background leakage, so 9 mA, but until rather resent clamp-on ammeters would not measure less than 10 mA, I had to update mine,

and my house is only just within the limit, not a problem as 14 x RCBO's plus two RCD sockets on the UPS supply.

However, the above often means it is not a simple case of going into a home, and adding an RCD. And the best time to update a property is when it is empty. The last thing any landlord wants is to have to call out an electrician over the weekend because an RCD has tripped, find it was due to some item belonging to the tenant, and try and charge the tenant for the call-out. So it is in the landlords interest to go all RCBO when upgrading, and I know when I did that with my own house, other faults were found, so as said the best time is when empty.

I know in Flintshire the council did a block at a time, so when 20 homes complete, 20 families would move, the problem was homes adapted for the disabled, and putting people in old people's homes, while the work was done, etc. It took years to up-grade all the homes, and once done, the first ones needed doing again.

And how can a council remove 10 homes to be renovated, when there are homeless on the streets?

 

[Agile]

So when did two RCD consumer units become "old"?

They have always seemed a good idea to me!

But then I repair boilers and like the lights to still be on when a boiler has tripped an RCD.

Boiler pumps sometimes leak internally and cause leakage to the case to trip an RCD.

One amusing case I went to was when the boiler installer firm could not identify the intermittent tripping even though they sent three engineers to look.

When I went I saw a room stat at the remote end of the kitchen and asked when it had been fitted. After the boiler I was told.

So I quietly bypassed the stat connections and started the boiler and chatted to the owner whilst drinking my coffee. He was getting visibly uncomfortable that I was casually drinking the coffee and not looking inside the boiler.

After a few more minutes he said that the boiler would usually have tripped the RCD by now! I replied that I had already identified the fault! He looked a little surprised as I had not looked inside the boiler.

What had happened was that the room stat had been moved further away and the wires had just been twisted together maybe with a little tape on then but just allowed to trail over the damp subsoil under the floor.

I was lucky as being very familiar with the boiler ( I did warrantee repairs for them! ) I knew that the thermostat used a mains supply as it's live feed. That was presumably so that electronic stats needing a live feed could more easily be wired.

So I left the stat disconnected and asked him to get back the installer to properly wire it as I did not want to get involved in taking up laminate floors! I have to say I felt it was a very easy £84 for me but then my skills which enabled me to quickly identify the problem when three from the installers all failed perhaps had some value. I will add that the installer's firm were also a manufacturer's service agent!