Non-standard close coupling on old Twyford toilet

[kemn]

Hi,

My toilet flush gave up the ghost a few days ago. I'm pretty sure it just needs the syphon replaced, but when I removed the cistern I found that the connection for the closed coupling system on the pan is not standard.

It's a Twyford toilet, was in the house when I bought it, and probably +30 years old. The pan has four bolt holes instead of the normal two, and they're shaped in a rectangle around the hole for the pipe. The fitting that was there when I took it apart was triangular, with two bolt holes, and had some kind of cork surround - can't tell exactly what because it was totally rotten!

Has anyone come across this before, and do you know if I can get a replacement part that will fit?

Thanks

 

[yerino]

Have you got a picture?

It sounds like it's a syphonic toilet working in conjunction with a syphonic syphon.

Probably easier to just replace the toilet. But a picture will confirm this.

 

[kemn]

Untitled

• kemn
• 29 Aug 2012
• 1

Untitled

• kemn
• 29 Aug 2012
• 1

Pictures above. Suspect I'm going to have to replace the toilet!

 

[Burnerman]

Just before you dive in (!) not all close coupling doughnut washers are the same....one make (I think its Ideal) have a much flatter and bigger diameter washer that could make the flush seal, and conical rubber bung washers between cistern and pan are available too.
Plumbcenter do them, but so do the likes of toiletspares.co.uk.
John

 

[JohnD]

let's have a look at the pan, preferably showing the water level, and, from the side, theshape of the trap round the back.

if it really is a syphonic WC, they are much sought-after by people in the know.

 

[kemn]

More pictures - it's a very small bathroom, so angles not good, sorry. The water level in the picture is where it normally sits - I think in a siphon toilet it might be higher?

View media item 49633 View media item 49634 View media item 49636 View media item 49635

 

[kemn]

Burnerman - thanks, will have a look. I'm less concerned about the donut / seal than about the layout of the bolt holes - I can only find plates that have two holes, in line with the pipe hole. I've got the original plate, which fits the bolt holes on the pan, but it's really corroded and I don't really want to use it. It also looks like there should be something between the cistern and the pan - there's a gap that was filled with (rotten) cork.

 

[denso13]

Found this, but no photo showing! Maybe contact them for info http://www.mathewsonandrosemond.co.uk/twyfords-4-bolt-conversion-plate-p-678.html

 

[kemn]

denso13 - sounds good!

 

[JohnD]

I and my family have had four syphonics between us, they all had a wide shallow sort of bowl with the water level looking higher and wider than yours, and a narrow-looking trap, so I don't think it is. However there may be other designs that I have not seen.

I am still looking for a white syphonic pan for my current home as I like them so much. In my previous house the syphonic WC cost more than the whole of the rest of the bathroom suite put together

edit
That metal plate is Retail Price: £35.08

 

[mysteryman]

It might be worth getting in touch with Twyfords. There were double trap and single trap syphonic pans. The double trap versions have an air extractor which sits in the outlet of the syphon in the cistern. This engages with, and must be airtight with, the inner hole in the pan below the cistern. There should be a mushroom shaped washer on the bottom of the air exctractor. If this is not all present and correct, the bog will not flush properly. The water level in the pan should drop as the vacuum is created by the air extractor, then rise again, and all contents will flush away. It looks from your photos as if this is a syphonic, there were many versions.

It is many years since I worked on one of these, but as far as I remember, the four bolt hole versions were all double trap syphonic and did not have a metal plate between the cistern and pan. The four bolts went through holes in the base of the cistern with rubber washers to make it watertight. I think there have been various conversion kits over the years, but if someone has put non-standard parts on your bog, it may need putting back to what Twyfords intended. You will not find much compatibility with other makes. Some of these had ceramic syphons, some in two parts.

One of my sons calls these a 'sucker bog' - you get the picture. As far as I know, all this info is correct, I've seen many different ones over the years. My apologies if I am wrong.

These types were fashionable from the 1940s onwards till about the early 1970s. They were always very expensive.

 

[JohnD]

I am delighted to say I have now managed to get a NOS Twyfords syphonic pan, from the cellar of a retired plumber.

I am now setting about locating the other parts needed to get it sucking.

 

[Denis247]

I know this is an old thread, but I have a similar problem; I have a Twyfords double trap siphonic pan and the cistern is fixed to the pan by four bolts. My problem is that the cistern has a hairline crack and will soon need replacing, but sourcing the correct one is an expensive nightmare, being quoted over £400 for just the cistern. I'd like to retain the pan if I can, and noticed in this thread a mention of a conversion plate. I have contacted Mathewson & Redmond Ltd for details, but I though in the meantime I'd ask if anyone has anything they can add??, or if anyone knows where I can obtain a cistern for a reasonable price??. Thanks.

 

[jeff the gasman]

http://www.replacementbathroom.co.uk/twyfords-siphonic-brampton-wc-siphon--air-extractor-3082-p.asp

 

[Nige F]

I know this is an old thread, but I have a similar problem; I have a Twyfords double trap siphonic pan and the cistern is fixed to the pan by four bolts. My problem is that the cistern has a hairline crack and will soon need replacing, but sourcing the correct one is an expensive nightmare, being quoted over £400 for just the cistern. I'd like to retain the pan if I can, and noticed in this thread a mention of a conversion plate. I have contacted Mathewson & Redmond Ltd for details, but I though in the meantime I'd ask if anyone has anything they can add??, or if anyone knows where I can obtain a cistern for a reasonable price??. Thanks.

Try www.brokenbog.com