Notification/Building Control/Testing stuff

[DeadJoe]

I have been reading this forum with great interest, and was given some really useful advice last week, for which I am very grateful - thanks, guys!

I wondered if someone could direct me to some resources which deal with the hurdles the diy-er has to deal with before embarking on any work?

I wondered what does 'Notification' involve? Do they come and have a look at what you are planning to do, then check again afterwards? And how do they check? Also, who are 'they'?

Building Control - is that the same thing?

And Part P - is signing off on that part of the notification thing, or something else? Is it like a PIR? Should I have had a certificate for some work I had professionally done involving a thermal store and the electrics connected to the immersion? And the solar tubes? Or is that all dealt with by the person installing and kept elsewhere?

I'm really struggling to understand what bits of paper I should have and who I need to tell before I do anything, or get someone else to do anything. Can anyone enlighten me, or direct me somewhere where I can find out?

Thanks.

 

[17thman]

Hi dead joe.

If you wish to embark on any work yourself, if it is a direct replacement or maintenance or just adding a lighting point which is not in a bathroom or kitchen or outside, generally you will not need to notify. However if you are not "competant" it is not recommended as you would still like to know that the additions or replacements are safe. This is known as minor works.

For the work you have detailed then you should have been issued an Electrical Installation Certificate. How long ago was it?

If have work professionally done then the contractor will take care of notifying building control. If you wished to carry out the work you described then you will need to notify building control before hand and for a fee they will check generally at first and second fix and then you ned do nothing. But if you are not "competant" then they may, depending where you live, ask for an electrician to test and inspect , maybe, at you cost.

There seem to be many differences in local authority interpretations.

Building control is your planning office.LABC

 

[ban-all-sheds]

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//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part-p
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[ericmark]

I have been reading this forum with great interest, and was given some really useful advice last week, for which I am very grateful - thanks, guys!

I wondered if someone could direct me to some resources which deal with the hurdles the diy-er has to deal with before embarking on any work?

I wondered what does 'Notification' involve? Do they come and have a look at what you are planning to do, then check again afterwards? And how do they check? Also, who are 'they'?

Building Control - is that the same thing?

And Part P - is signing off on that part of the notification thing, or something else? Is it like a PIR? Should I have had a certificate for some work I had professionally done involving a thermal store and the electrics connected to the immersion? And the solar tubes? Or is that all dealt with by the person installing and kept elsewhere?

I'm really struggling to understand what bits of paper I should have and who I need to tell before I do anything, or get someone else to do anything. Can anyone enlighten me, or direct me somewhere where I can find out?

Thanks.

From what I have seen to date Part P is not national but very much regional with each council handling it in a different way. So unless you talk to someone local to you the information could well be wrong.

It seems my council has a minimum charge of £100 plus vat but when the builders working on my parent’s house did a bunk because they were both disabled there was no charge.
I phoned LABC and they attended and told me I could not start to do any work until I had paperwork from them, which would arrive in the post. I answered my mother could not use the loo as it was so I regarded the work as an emergency we he reluctantly agreed with. He then said how I would need to provide him with a satisfactory installation certificate and the figures would have to pass. At which I informed him both my son, I held city & guild 2391 certificates, and as a degree, holding Electrical engineer there would be no errors in paperwork.
We only ever had the one visit before taking over the job. I hand delivered the installation certificate to council offices, which was dually returned together with the completion certificate from the council.

So paperwork wise on an electrical installation you should have either a Minor Works Certificate or an Installation certificate issued by the person doing the work.

If the work is of a type requiring Part P then either the electrician if registered should also issue a completion certificate, or it not a registered electrician the certificates issued by the electrician need forwarding to the Local Authority Building Control (LABC). Who should have been informed before the worked started and any fee paid who will then decide if they want to inspect and once satisfied will return the certificates together with a completion certificate.
For the DIY person there are some different rules. The problem lies in the Installation or Minor Works certificate which to issue you must satisfy the LABC you have the skills. The LABC could in theory refuse permission to do the work. Although they never asked me for a plan of what I was doing I suppose it would be reasonable to ask for some description. Once they accept your request they become responsible for site safety. They would be within their rights to insist on viewing at set stages of the work and requiring a final inspection before being powered up.
For some reason they are not required to issue an installation or minor works certificate although I can’t see why this is not issued. But also they are not allowed to charge any additional fees to test the installation even if they use a third party to do the testing. Although we hear loads of stories of how they have requested extra fees.
What is not plain is what happens where the work is not up to scratch? Of course they can’t be expected to return multiple times to test same work. If they tell you to rip it out and start again then maybe they can charge all over again?
As electricians we only hear from house holders about councils from hell. And if they are completely inapt they are not likely to tell us.
Do down load and read the Part P document from here

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The problem lies in the Installation or Minor Works certificate which to issue you must satisfy the LABC you have the skills.

But there is no legal obligation to issue one of those, no requirement in the Building Regulations etc.

The LABC could in theory refuse permission to do the work.

I don't believe they have the power to do that, as long as what you propose is reasonably safe.

They would be within their rights to insist on viewing at set stages of the work and requiring a final inspection before being powered up.

If they want a final inspection it's down to them to do it, or organise and pay for it themselves.

For some reason they are not required to issue an installation or minor works certificate although I can’t see why this is not issued.

Because there's no requirement in the Building Regulations for one.

What is not plain is what happens where the work is not up to scratch? Of course they can’t be expected to return multiple times to test same work. If they tell you to rip it out and start again then maybe they can charge all over again?

What do they do if they aren't happy with any aspect of some controlled work? What have they traditionally done if they don't think it complies with the Building Regs?

Do down load and read the Part P document from here

Joe - also read the Building Regulations.

 

[ericmark]

If have work professionally done then the contractor will take care of notifying building control.

Only if Part P registered. If not registered it could be your responsibility. Since builders often have to work with LABC for the other non electrical part some feel it is not worth the money to become members of one of the overseeing companies. Normally builders will take care of building control requirements for you. But you are responsible to see this is done. With some people having fees by LABC waved i.e. disabled it is sometime left for the house holder to arrange.

Be careful as the word chosen by the firms in the system is "competent persons scheme" but anyone with a C&G 2391 is a "competent person" so it is easy to make a mistake. I prefer the word "Registered" as it leaves less chance of confusion.

Unlike Corgi it is the firm in the scheme not the person so any work done cash in hand will not be covered.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If not registered it could be your responsibility.

The Building Regulations are crystal clear that it's the person who carries out the work who is responsible.

 

[ericmark]

What Ban-all-sheds says is again the theory. And the BS 7671:2008 regulations are only a recommendation which may be used in a court of law! So because insurance will normally require the work to comply with BS 7671:2008 and it can be cited in a court of law most people regard it as a bible and complying with it is normally seen as complying with the laws for example EAW act.
So yes he has a point but under normal circumstances those responsible for the safe completion of electrical work will issue a installation or minor works certificate even when the law does not require it.
However health and safety laws do require written documentation and without following the BS7671:2008 it would be hard to know if the written documentation complied with the health and safety regulations and laws.
So to put what Ban-all-sheds has said into a nutshell He is splitting hairs

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So because insurance will normally require the work to comply with BS 7671:2008

Will it?

Mine doesn't.

complying with it is normally seen as complying with the laws for example EAW act.

Joe's a DIYer - how do the EAW regulations apply to him?

under normal circumstances those responsible for the safe completion of electrical work will issue a installation or minor works certificate even when the law does not require it.

Indeed, but LABC are not responsible for the safe completion of electrical work, only for confirming that it was done safely.

However health and safety laws do require written documentation and without following the BS7671:2008 it would be hard to know if the written documentation complied with the health and safety regulations and laws.

Joe's a DIYer - what H&S laws apply to him?

So to put what Ban-all-sheds has said into a nutshell He is splitting hairs

Really?

The problem lies in the Installation or Minor Works certificate which to issue you must satisfy the LABC you have the skills.

But there is no legal obligation to issue one of those, no requirement in the Building Regulations etc.

What's splitting hairs about that? There's not even a hint in the Building Regulations about issuing certificates, and Approved Document P has a section dealing with the situation when work is done by people not able to issue them.

They would be within their rights to insist on viewing at set stages of the work and requiring a final inspection before being powered up.

If they want a final inspection it's down to them to do it, or organise and pay for it themselves.

If you think I'm splitting hairs there then you must also think that of the people who wrote Approved Document P and the person in the ODPM/DCLG who wrote the circular to LABCs telling them that.

For some reason they are not required to issue an installation or minor works certificate although I can’t see why this is not issued.

Because there's no requirement in the Building Regulations for one.

What's splitting hairs about that? There's not even a hint in the Building Regulations about issuing certificates, and Approved Document P explicitly says that LABCs won't issue one.

 

[DeadJoe]

I'm going to have to get back to you on this - there's enough reading to keep me busy for several evenings! But I am already puzzled...

Apparently, I can replace the damaged wiring in a circuit, like for like, without notifying anyone or taking any particular action, as long as I am 'competent'. Leaving aside the definition of 'competence', I guess this is about me having at least some idea about what a circuit is, the dangers involved, the importance of using the correct tools and materials correctly, and ensuring that the work carried out is 'safe' (/generalisation). Bottom line, I am confident I can do this, and I am fully able to read and find out about stuff I am not sure about, or ask questions here. But I am not able to do the required testing, so my approach would be to replace the cable, then get someone to test it for me (although it appears testing by a professional is not a necessity).

But that raises the question: If I can do that, why not replace the wiring of a whole circuit (my non-earthed lighting circuit, for example). It's the same as replacing a single cable, but x10. My reading suggests that I can do this, but I would be wise to get it tested afterwards.

But if I can do that, then surely I can improve the circuit too, in a minor way? For example, replacing the junction box system downstairs for a loop-in system like upstairs, and splitting the circuits, being careful to deal with the borrowed neutral. Same skills, same knowledge involved. I understand the law says 'Part P' for this, but it seems to me the difference between replacing like for like and making the sort of alteration I am suggesting is not that huge in terms of knowledge and skills required. If I can do one without telling anyone, I don't understand why the law says I can't do the other without notifying. In both cases, I would want someone to test for me. I have no interest in burning to death or getting electrocuted.

I am also anxious that I don't want to do anything that might mean the council telling me I can't use my lights until they say so, even if I am absolutely sure they are fine. But at the same time, I don't want to ignore changes I know would improve things.

And I haven't even looked at the ring-main yet. I am almost scared to, in case I see stuff that is wrong, and am faced with this dilemma again; to DIY and deal with all the regulations, or starve for most of the year to fund an Electrician to do it for me, or leave it until it falls apart...

The temptation is to do what needs to be done, carefully and slowly, then pay for a PIR (which would be cheaper than getting the whole lot done by an Electrician) and pay for whatever might need putting right, in the unlikely event that I have have screwed up in some major way. Hell, I could probably learn to do some basic testing - I have a multimeter and know how to use it (I fix computers). And if there are any minor changes in the lighting circuit to how it was before, who would know? If the PIR comes out safe, then where's the problem?

 

[mattylad]

Joe, this is the dilemma that many of us face.
So a lot of us just do it as we are improving what is there & making it much safer.

 

[ericmark]

With the exception of kitchen and bathroom I can see one could change the cable bit by bit.

Competent person. A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others.

Meters insulation needs testing as 500V and continuity needs 200ma min which is unlikely on any multi-meter.

Can you get a grant in any way? I think Part P is flawed and I have told my MP as much. But while people don't complain but just break the law then it will not change. What is happening people know they are breaking the law so will not report any accidents so the government statistics show it is working. Only deaths will show it is not working and people are carrying on regardless.

Where before the Part P you would likely find an industrial electrician willing to do a homer now it is not worth the risk for him so more true DIY is going on.

As I believe at the moment firms like Asprea who do the survey work for insurance companies are only interested in bad workmanship if that is proved then the insurance of the electrician rather than house insurance will have to pay out. How long that will continue for is another matter.

Just a pity you hadn't drawn up your plans before 2004.

Every time the subject comes up there is conflict with some electricians trying to quote out of one government electronic paper to say another government paper is wrong. Both which have not been updated and refer to obsolete regulations.

I would think anything which may effect your decision has been said. So now it's make up your mind time.

One problem is any electrician on here or any other forum who tries to assist you break the law will likely get thrown off the forum. I have already been thrown off one for as they put it. "Giving dangerous advice" read that as tell the DIY'er too much. I took attitude they would do it anyway so better telling correct way. But another electrician looking after his own lively hood complained I was saying too much.

There are books but some are rather expensive. Guide to 17th edition etc. not too bad for price.

So make your mind up time and of course if you break the law you will not tell us so I suppose we will never know!

 

[stargazer]

Indeed, to notify or not to notify.
That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous LBC fees,
Or to take arms against a sea of wiring troubles,
And keep it quiet.
Ay, there's the rub.
What's a man to do?

 

[DeadJoe]

Electricians Guide Book to the 17th edition Wiring Regulations
Guide to the IEE Wiring regulations - 17th edition

Sounds like a worthwhile investment to me.

I'll work through through Part P and all the links on the Planning Portal provided by BAS. It's a bit sad, maybe, but I quite like this sort of reading. Any other recommendations?

 

[stargazer]

If you like a good read, make yourself a cup of coffee and have a look at this

http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselection_web.html

It’s not been updated for the 17th but is still a good informative read.