oil pipe spec

[Malc]

OFTEC book 3 says copper tube for oil lines to BS 2871 part 1 table Y. But on BES 10mm copper pipe all seems to be table W. I would have thought that either BES 8952 or 7359 would be the one to use. The latter has air channels so I guess would be the best as would insulate the oil to stop any water in there freezing.

Opinions?

Anyone know what the outside diameter of these are? Or rather what pipe clips to use?

BTW the house is painted yellow hence a yellow plastic might blend better but I could always paint it.

 

[oilman]

Whatever plastic coating you have will degrade in the light, get brittle and fall off.

You should not have water in the oil, so you don't have to worry about it, as you will have dealt with it before it gets into the pipe.

I generally don't use the plastic covered pipe because it's too big. For up to 30kW 6mm OD is more than adequate, and I can't get it with plastic covering, so I put it in some plastic pipe where necessary. It's a lot easier to form than larger pipe, loads cheaper, and I don't know why oftec specify a particular spec. We don't record half the stuff we use, and the Oftec inspector didn't mention anything about it.

I haven't got a copy of BS2871, BS8952 or BS7359 what do they say?

 

[Malc]

Thanks oilman. Food for thought.

Water in the oil was told to me by one of the OFTEC registered I approached for a commissioning quote. Apparently this one gets a lot of call outs in winter to unfreeze pipes, which is the water in them freezing not the oil. Anyway my oil pipe run will be attached to the house so should be a little bit warmer I guess.

I'm surprised about the 6mm I though 10mm was the norm. Anyway HRM wallstar manual say 10mm in the oil supply diagram so I guess I need 10mm. HRM supply all the fittings so I assume they are 10mm too. I wonder if they are olive or flared? Do you know? OFTEC say used flared but installers I've contacted says that olives are the norm.

I haven't got a copy of BS spec either. Since I expect they are £££ and as my library don't carry any now nor can get them now (new rules) then I don't expect to see a copy either! Someone once put to me the argument that all standards should be free as this encourges people to read them and follow them. I can't fault his argument . There are some standards organisations that DO do this, but not BS!

 

[oilman]

Water in the oil was told to me by one of the OFTEC registered I approached for a commissioning quote. Apparently this one gets a lot of call outs in winter to unfreeze pipes, which is the water in them freezing not the oil. Anyway my oil pipe run will be attached to the house so should be a little bit warmer I guess.

I'm surprised about the 6mm I though 10mm was the norm.

It is the norm. Mostly because the installers can't think for themselves or read the oftec document which tells them that 6mm will do for most situations. Also published by Titan on their leaflet.

Anyway HRM wallstar manual say 10mm in the oil supply diagram so I guess I need 10mm. HRM supply all the fittings so I assume they are 10mm too. I wonder if they are olive or flared? Do you know?

They do supply 10mm, because all the installers (who don't think) give them grief if they don't. There's also the problems with most plumbing suppliers. They don't supply things because people wan't them, they sell them because they often are in bed with the manufacturers. You are only an end user, you count for less than I do.

They are compression fittings. If the equipment is installed by an oftec technician, they should use flares. There's no argument about this, that's it!!

OFTEC say used flared but installers I've contacted says that olives are the norm.

They can say what they like, oftec do try to get it over to them, but it's a hard slog. There are a lot of intransigent installers around, probably because they work on gas where compression fittings are acceptable.

Let them put the boiler in, and when theyve finished write to oftec. They might well visit the installer and tell them to change the fittings at their cost. They will probably not install a remote operated fire valve either, saying HRM don't supply one. Tough, if they're oftec registered they MUST fit one (they have to anyway to comply with building regs, but I have seen installations without, signed off by building control officers, 'cos they can.



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[Malc]

I suppose at the end of the day if everything is geared towards 10mm and the cost of the pipe is the same why not fit 10mm? Bends might be a big larger I suppose.

The olives question seems illogical (as mister Spock would say). Olives are ok on gas which must need a tighter joint than oil, 'cos its a gas not a liquid. Plus it sounds like the Oil tank kit and the Boiler kit will come with olive fittings so I'd have to junk all of that (unless it is 1/4 bsp with adaptors, - new adaptors). That makes no sense at all.

HRM boiler leaflet says the fire valve is built in - a fusible hand wheel fire valve. As I understand it in a standard boiler this alone would not be enough since the fire could burn through the pipe and allow the oil in. However for most wall boilers (and mine I've check the heights) the oil level is below the boiler, so burn through the pipe and the oil does NOT flow.

 

[oilman]

BS 5410 does not make a distinction about boilers, oftec's position is derived from BS 5410 which says a remote operated fire valve MUST be fitted at least 1m away from a wall mounted boiler.

I think leaking gas is not as great a hazard as oil. Gas may go bang, but oil seeps into the ground and contaminates water supplies. If it gets under houses, the house can be condemmed. The clean up costs are enormous with oil.

(And of course there's manufacturers in beds...........)

 

[Malc]

Let me be devil's advocate here .

Interesting point about gas, although when gas does go bang it can condemn the house too, and knock it down .

I would have thought flares more applicable to joints under ground. I could see the point of demanding the highest spec for those. But for where joints are visible, as they are in my case, I would have thought the requirements are less. Any oil leak would be quickly seen and at a minimum oil pipe inspection is meant to be part of the annual service. I suppose it's difficult to say which is worse in open air, oil leak or gas leak. My gut reaction is gas but I suppose you need a big gas leak before there is really a danger of explosion.

I presume that BS/OFTEC does not have the force of law hence manufacturers/installers use compression fittings. Building regs don't say anything about pipe fitting AFAIK and only building regs are the law.

As for the fire valve. According to HRM manual the requirement of document J of the building regs is "a means of automatic isolation of the fuel supply" which their internal fire wheel and the fact the oil is going up hill provide. They do add that where that is not the case you do need a remote fire valve.

I've checked my layout and the the top of the oil tank is below the bottom of the boiler by 200mm. I also intend to run the oil line horizontal from under the boiler where it comes out. And then round a corner before going down. So a fire could not drop on to a full oil line. The oil line is only below tank top level around the corner.

 

[oilman]

I presume that BS/OFTEC does not have the force of law hence manufacturers/installers use compression fittings. Building regs don't say anything about pipe fitting AFAIK and only building regs are the law.

Building regs are the law, and building control officers can sign off whatever they like. However, building regs do refer to BS5410, but building control officers can sign off whatever they like.

BS5410 refers to flared joints and remote fire valves. You can fit what you feel like because building control officers can sign off whatever they like, and if they sign it off who cares? Flared joints stop air getting in too, which is a useful function.

As for the fire valve. According to HRM manual the requirement of document J of the building regs is "a means of automatic isolation of the fuel supply" which their internal fire wheel and the fact the oil is going up hill provide. They do add that where that is not the case you do need a remote fire valve.

If their valve does the job, why is it no good if the tank is higher? Sounds like they are batting on a sticky wicket, and will take the liability if the tank is lower, but confidence runs out if it's higher.

If I was doing the job, you'd get a remote fire valve, and you'd get flared joints, you wouldn't have any say in the matter, and this should go for any other oftec registered installer. If you're doing it, you can do what you like and get the building control officer to sign it. I wouldn't sign (because I can't) it as being correct, and if you asked me to commission it (even with BCO signature) after giving you all this info I'd refuse. Someone else'll do it no doubt, but if I can't get you to listen, I may as well sulk.

 

[Malc]

Don't sulk .

I'll see if I can hire the flare tool (do know anywhere?) or get the oftec man doing the commissioning to finish off the ends. The air getting it is a good point since there will be suction on the line as the boiler is higher than the oil level. I know one oftec man I approach said you can't get the tool (which I don't think is true as BES seem to sell them, unless he doesn't know about BES). I assume he always uses olives then.

The fire valve I don't think is necessary as HRM say it is isn't and I can see their logic. Fire wheel shuts off oil so pump can't suck it. But fire could burn through copper pipe before the fire wheel. With floor mounted boiler oil would flow again but wallstar needs to suck to get oil as oil level is lower. Hence break the pipe and no oil flow in wall mounted. In all cases then a HRM wallstar automatically shuts off the oil, either by internal valve or physics. Hence wallstar with internal fire wheel and oil under suction removes need for external fire valve.

 

[oilman]

I know one oftec man I approach said you can't get the tool

Speak to oftec and tell them who told you you can't get the tool, they will have words. He's either a liar or an idiot, lots of places sell them (not cheap though).

The fire valve I don't think is necessary as HRM say it is isn't

That's their opinion, building regs say otherwise

Fire wheel shuts off oil

You hope. There's no way of testing it. You might be able to turn it off, but it has to do it by itself when you're not there.

oil under suction removes need for external fire valve.

yeah, but oil under suction hasn't read the building regs. You now what you have to do to the job properly. Why are you spending so much effort trying to qualify to change your name ..........................................................................................................................................................to 'arfur job?

 

[kevplumb]

chill oilman i was always told to use flared on oil above or below ground
they are more difficult to pull apart with settlement etc
and when you see a 3 inch comp blow off on a 1000 gal tank in a boilerhouse it tends to make you think

 

[taydo]

buy flare kits from tocoflo.co.uk special offer £35.00 plus vat etc.

As I understand HRM will not associate with Oftec, so does not comply with there regulations.

they are only down the road next time im passing I will pop in and ask why

 

[wilhelm]

i believe oftec only "recommend" the use of flared fittings.

olives do the job......what more could one ask for?

 

[Malc]

Firstly I'm not trying to do half a job. And secondly I second chill out. We are having a discussion that is all. HRM seem to have one opinion you have another. I'm trying to decide who is right.

Clearly this is my money I'm spending I want best value. If there already is a fire valve that will do the job (I know your opinion is different) then why do I want 2? I take your point about testing of the fire wheel. The remote fire valves can be tested. If a fire wheel can't and it's not fail safe then that is a good reason to add a second fire valve

And BTW the building regs do not mandate a remote fire valve, only automatic cutting off of the oil in a fire which, they say, can be achieved by a remote fire valve.

And for Wilhelm OFTEC book 3 says fittings "should be" the flared type. To me that reads stronger than "are recommend to be" but less than "must be" but perhaps they meant "must be" otherwise they would have said "recommended to be".

 

[wilhelm]

errr , well, i got an old copy.

and if they "must be" they "must be" but they aint "must be"

i suggest you go to a fekkn lawyer and argue the t0ss.

because @ the end of the day.......lifes too short to fekk around ,flaring fekkng copper tube. i think.


yep, i managed to pick up a load of father ted vids @ a car boot the other day....brilliant!!