Out Of Plumb Wall & Missing Mortar

[jagillham]

As per my others posts, we are looking at buying a house, but have discovered a number of defects.

Latest one is that the rear wall of the recent (<5yr old) extension seems to be quite out of plumb. Is there a certain amount of tolerance on this, or a point it becomes unsafe? Supposedly the entire lot was signed off by a private building inspector, but we've not had all the paperwork through as yet.

Also of concern to me is that there is a couple of engineering bricks below the DPM without mortar around them. I can't really understand why that would be?! Any ideas on why that would be done? I'm told it's a concrete slab extension, so it's not like they were thinking of adding airbricks etc.

 

[Notch7]

The wall foesnt look out of plumb on its full height, it looks like the top few courses are springing out -difficult to tell though

I hope the roof isnt pushing the wall out?

Not great for a recently built.

 

[jagillham]

It did seem when we was there that it started to come out on the top rows.

How do I tell if it is the roof pushing the brickwork out, are there other things to look for?

 

[Notch7]

It did seem when we was there that it started to come out on the top rows.

How do I tell if it is the roof pushing the brickwork out, are there other things to look for?

Im only guessing, its impossible to tell from a pic. Its pretty unlikely the roof is really the cause, although Ive seen that on old houses. Generally the wall plate and roof sit on the inner skin. If the extension is flat ceiling inside the joists should stop any lateral movement. A vaulted ceiling is more complicated.

I suppose the mist likely reason is the brickwork is just bad at the top.

Hopefully a builder will be along soon and may have some definitivd advice.

 

[jagillham]

Thanks for the quick reply

Just looking at again now, and two more things have caught my attention.

1. You can see the damp proof course on the first close up picture, but not on the second. Looks like the pointing has breached it, or it's non-existent.

2. I'm assuming that's the cavity I'm seeing in the last picture. Should that not be 10cm between the brickwork?

 

[Doggit]

As the DPC is in one picture, you can assume that it's been done all round; so the mortar may have breached it, but as it't the outer leaf, it's not so desperate, just lightly rake it out. And if it had been breached inside, you'd see evidence of damp.

You've shown pictures of the wall, but not the roof, but if the wall was pushing out because of the roof, then the roof would show signs of sagging, and that's unlikely on a new build. Most likely due to a crap brickie working after a pub lunch on a friday afternoon - or is shifted slightly above the lintel whilst it was going off.

Unfortunately, you're worrying about a lot of things that a surveyor is more qualified to comment on than you are, and when you get a bit more experience, you can still miss problems. If you like the house, and there are no obvious issues like damp etc, then put in an offer subject to survey, and get a structural survey done. If they find any problems, then you lowee th offer price, and negotiate from there.

 

[noseall]

It looks poorly built from the outset. You only have to look at those class B's (engineers) at ground level to see that some have been laid with the face side in.

The plumbing anomaly looks to have arisen from a poorly thought out lintel detail, in that they have not used the correct sized cavity (width) lintel. Rather, they grabbed the nearest one and stuck it on only to later realise that the cavity upstand was too large. We had to cut the back off a couple of courses of brick, earlier this year, when the customer supplied us with the wrong (cavity) sized lintels.

And no way is that mortar 3:1 below DPC.

 

[noseall]

The other theory is that they built the two corners, run the line in, but plumbed the door jambs rather than let the line dictate. And then once above the lintel used the line and discovered some run-out in the corners, in conflict with the plumb jambs. But to do that would be bonkers.

 

[^woody^]

I'd only be worried if the inside was like it

Have you put the level on the main house up by the bedroom windows?

Anyway, you don't need a level to see that the extension is shiite

 

[Notch7]

It looks poorly built from the outset. You only have to look at those class B's (engineers) at ground level to see that some have been laid with the face side in.

The plumbing anomaly looks to have arisen from a poorly thought out lintel detail, in that they have not used the correct sized cavity (width) lintel. Rather, they grabbed the nearest one and stuck it on only to later realise that the cavity upstand was too large. We had to cut the back off a couple of courses of brick, earlier this year, when the customer supplied us with the wrong (cavity) sized lintels.

And no way is that mortar 3:1 below DPC.

The brickwork does kick around the level of the lintel, so if they have used a lintel designed for a bigger cavity that would make sense -although that is shocking cowboy attitude given that lintels are readily available. It would be surprising if the wall had anything other than a 100mm cavity which I guess is a most common lintel size.

I wondered why there are visible markings on the engineerings -so thats the non face side.

 

[stuart45]

It can also happen when taking the brickwork up higher than is comfortable for your height, although it's not usually that far out. When laid hard to the line however the middle does tend to push out and can settle even more out overnight.

 

[jagillham]

Thanks all for the replies

You've shown pictures of the wall, but not the roof, but if the wall was pushing out because of the roof, then the roof would show signs of sagging, and that's unlikely on a new build.

Pictures of the roof are here, another area of concern unfortunately!
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/repaired-flat-roof-can-it-be-tested.492468/

Unfortunately, you're worrying about a lot of things that a surveyor is more qualified to comment on than you are, and when you get a bit more experience, you can still miss problems. If you like the house, and there are no obvious issues like damp etc, then put in an offer subject to survey, and get a structural survey done. If they find any problems, then you lowee th offer price, and negotiate from there.

I have/had decided not to go down the survey route initially. Few reasons for this, mainly being quotes were coming in £600+, and I'm told it's non-invasive. Plus plenty of horror stories online about surveys. I figured extension being new should have been checked by building control. House is 50's, not rendered and not recently decorated, so any cracks damp should be visible. This just left roof/boiler/electrics... which I'd get specialists in for.

We do really like the house (well, the garden!), but we've gone in at about as much as we can afford. So anything that needs attention is going to have to realistically come off the asking price for us to proceed.

It looks poorly built from the outset. You only have to look at those class B's (engineers) at ground level to see that some have been laid with the face side in.

Anyway, you don't need a level to see that the extension is shiite

Yeh... seems to be a consensus here about the quality of the work!

And no way is that mortar 3:1 below DPC.

I did notice that it seemed to be soft. How much of a problem is this?

The plumbing anomaly looks to have arisen from a poorly thought out lintel detail, in that they have not used the correct sized cavity (width) lintel. Rather, they grabbed the nearest one and stuck it on only to later realise that the cavity upstand was too large. We had to cut the back off a couple of courses of brick, earlier this year, when the customer supplied us with the wrong (cavity) sized lintels.

The brickwork does kick around the level of the lintel, so if they have used a lintel designed for a bigger cavity that would make sense -although that is shocking cowboy attitude given that lintels are readily available. It would be surprising if the wall had anything other than a 100mm cavity which I guess is a most common lintel size.

I know it's hard to tell, but the picture within the brickwork, do you think that cavity is 100mm? To me it does not look like it.

Have you put the level on the main house up by the bedroom windows?

Didn't do on the last visit. I presume you are getting at checking the entire back of the house is not leaning?


Thanks all once again. Appreciate the help!

 

[Doggit]

So you've got two posts going regarding the state of the extension, and you're still thinking of buying it. I'll add into here rather than the roof post, just to try and crystalize your thinking.

The brickworks mediocre at best, the roofs been poorly done, the drains haven't been done properly to get them outside the extension, so they've fudged the pipes going through the roof. The extension is a poorly done job, and you're going to inherit a lot of ongoing problems. I doubt if they'll drop the price by £10K to get the problems resolved, and you've got to decide how much all the ongoing repairs, leaks and niggles are going to cost whilst you live there. And if Nosealls right in the quality of the mortar mix on the DPC, then will the wall even survive on a long term basis.

Your money, your choice.

PS: who did the work; the owner, or a local builder that you need to avoid.

 

[jagillham]

You are right, the more I think of it, the worse it gets

Problem for us is that this is the first house in a fairly long time in searching that fits the bill for us - and the wife & I agree on!

The extension is slap-dash, no doubt about it. Looking at planning dept docs, and speaking to the vendor, I understand a builder brought the property with the idea of another house to the side as it is a semi on a corner plot. Permission was denied as extra dwelling would be too small, and too close to road compared to rest of the adjoining street. Builder has started the extension, but I got the impression current owner had to finish the last of it. Sure they mentioned they had to get the electrics sorted straight away.

We're not adverse to remedial work, so long as it is 'fixable', and the price reflects this. Million dollar question for me really is to what extent the extension is an issue (and can be fixed), and how much will cost to fix it.

 

[Doggit]

Then it begs the question of how flexible the vendors are going to be, and how long it's been on the market. I'd look at getting the drains redone (which may require the extension floor coming up) and test the mortar on the DPC (which could possibly be redone in sections) and the roof taken off and relaid to level it, and then covered in EPDM.

But I'd be inclined to keep looking, as you don't know what other dodgy work he's done.