Out of square door frames with glass window above.

[peter x]

I live in a 1930s house and have a problem with the upstairs door frames ..we'll the header part,have the same frames on the bathroom and bedrooms,will add pics they actually look worse than the pics show, what if I removed the glass and chopped out the header part and replaced it all ...when doors are closed the gap looks terrible and as the doors have a square in them the gap between the square and top of door frame is really obvious.

 

[Bonni]

I think part and parcel of old houses is that the inner part of the house slightly sinks. Possibly due to inadequate foundations under inner walls.

If they bother you that much, then yes, alter the casing and cut/straighten the top of the door. And whilst you do that, I would change the glass to obscured.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Won't the window look wrong afterwards? Is it only you it bothers?

 

[peter x]

It's when doors are shut they look terrible..the bathroom door is even worse ..huge gap at one end ,do if you have a door with a cut out at the top like most old doors ie not a plain door it makes the nit between the top of door and frame look out on oneside, it's annoying to look at...don't want to butcher a door to fit the shape of frame either..

 

[peter x]

I think part and parcel of old houses is that the inner part of the house slightly sinks. Possibly due to inadequate foundations under inner walls.

If they bother you that much, then yes, alter the casing and cut/straighten the top of the door. And whilst you do that, I would change the glass to obscured.

I would say that 1930s houses are solid and not suffering from lack of foundations.

 

[peter x]

Won't the window look wrong afterwards? Is it only you it bothers?

Freddie I would replace the glass but it would not be obvious imo not like the door and frame issue.

 

[Eccles]

Seen this sort of thing in the past and it would not have been like that when the house was new. I reject the "sinking" idea and suspect that Mr Bodger and his mate have been at work at some time in the past. Usually Mr Bodger does not possess a spirit level or a set square and has no idea how to fit doors correctly as a decent carpenter does.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Sorry, but there really isn't a quick fix IMHO. The best looking result would be if t9he whole shooting match were to be reinstalled. That requires the door to come off, the glass come out and the entire casing (including the transom light portion of the casing) be removed.

Some work may be required to sort out the opening

The casing can then be squared up, the legs set to the same distance apart all the way down width and a lath nailed across them near the bottom (to keep the width of the opening constant). Next the casing is reinstalled, fixing the hinge side first (ensuring it is perfectly plumb and straight), and the transom is levelled before plumbing and fixing the second leg in place (but with only 2 screws and not heavily screwed in at this stage). Once your casing is in place the door can be reswung and if needs be the casing legs can pulled or pushed to accommodate warp in the door and then fully fixed. Architraves, glazing, glazing beads, etc can the go on

 

[peter x]

Job and knock the frame is square the uprights are OK it's the header that's not square same on all 3 upstairs door frames ...I've lived with it since I moved here 30 years ago

Seen this sort of thing in the past and it would not have been like that when the house was new. I reject the "sinking" idea and suspect that Mr Bodger and his mate have been at work at some time in the past. Usually Mr Bodger does not possess a spirit level or a set square and has no idea how to fit doors correctly as a decent carpenter does.

These door frames are original imo ...I've lived here 30 years. I doubt the builders had modern spirit levels back then.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Unfortunately, without seeing them first hand I'm still inclined to think that. Often the only way to sort it out properly is to take the casings out, correct any issues (they have probably taken on a "set" after a number of years, so may need pulling square and temporary diagonal battens nailing onto the face to keep them square until installed) and then reinstall them. Trying to pull one leg up or down in situ doesn't work that well in my experience, and TBH you really don't want to cut any of the joints if at all possible because that really banjaxes it

BTW we've had "modern spirit levels", as you put it, available to us since late Victorian times. The only difference these days is that any reasonable joiner carries a 6ft or a 2m level in his kit (in addition to a 2 footer and 4 footer) as opposed to just using a 4ft or 1m level and a piece of straight planed thimber like we used to pre-1990s (you use the long levels as a straight edge to check for pin-cushioning or bellying of casings in addition to them being levels).

 

[Diver Fred]

Are the walls unsusported (i.e. no wall underneath) Stud, Lath and Plaster? If they are it is quite possible the floor has settled causing the issue. Pull a tight line accepts the house from external wall to external wall to see if the 1st floor is a little lower in the centre of the house.

 

[peter x]

Are the walls unsusported (i.e. no wall underneath) Stud, Lath and Plaster? If they are it is quite possible the floor has settled causing the issue. Pull a tight line accepts the house from external wall to external wall to see if the 1st floor is a little lower in the centre of the house.

Seems pretty obvious the joiner fitted the headers out of square....I'm sure if it was something else I would have some serious cracks around the frames....everything is sound...been like it for years

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I'm sure if it was something else I would have some serious cracks around the frames....everything is sound...been like it for years

Not necessarilly. For a start it's likely the casings have been painted multiple times over the years, and buildings do settle. I live on a hilly part of the world (the Pennines) where there are communities that seemingly don't have a piece of flat ground bigger than a table napkin. With all these houses being built on hillsides there is a lot of minor subsidence and settlement, so even stuff that went in somewhere near right wasn't right after 20 years or more.

When the casing was made up it would (should) have been dead square. Transom light casings are generally fairly rigid at the top and difficult for a human to pull out of square, which is why I doubt that even an idiot would do that

 

[Diver Fred]

Not necessarilly. For a start it's likely the casings have been painted multiple times over the years, and buildings do settle. I live on a hilly part of the world (the Pennines) where there are communities that seemingly don't have a piece of flat ground bigger than a table napkin. With all these houses being built on hillsides there is a lot of minor subsidence and settlement, so even stuff that went in somewhere near right wasn't right after 20 years or more.
When the casing was made up it would (should) have been dead square. Transom light casings are generally fairly rigid at the top and difficult for a human to pull out of square, which is why I doubt thatveven an idiot would do that

My cottage first floor has exactly the same problem (without the borrowed lights) both 1st floor doorways look like the heads are not fitted square. The Lath & Plaster walls are only supported on the floor joists.
By 'pulling' a tight line between the external walls we can see the floor has dropped a little (about 3/4inch) with the permanent weight of the wall on the floor.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Luckily you didn't get a 1990's house. All the wood doors and windows would by wonky. But, if you don't spend time staring at them, most people don't, it's not a problem.

I reckon if it ain't broken, don't fix it. If you want better sealing, stick-on seals should work.