Outside socket installation

[stuali10]

Hi, can anyone please help?.....................
My electrician has left cables ready to be attached to an outside socket. I've purchased a double socket but it requires 2 sets of wires - 1 for each socket on it. How can I attach it bearing in mind I have only 1 set coming thru the wall?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think you mean there is a separate terminal for each leg of a ring circuit.

Just connect the three wires as normal and see if both sockets work.

 

[Bluehair]

Is it a Hamilton socket by any chance?
If so you need to link the two singles sockets together with some 2.5mm cable

 

[ericmark]

I know most will not worry about the law but you are in Wales so under Welsh Part P you would be better getting the electrician to complete the work and issue the compliance certificate together with of course the minor works or installation certificate.

Seems daft I know but if the double outdoor socket contains two single sockets then it can't be supplied from unfused spur. Not that I would really worry but that's still the rules. But with a fused spur it's OK.

One does have to be careful now since 2008 where all house sockets are RCD protected that with older wiring you can now buy non RCD protected sockets for use in the newer house which are not suitable where the wiring was pre-2008 and there is not RCD protection at the consumer unit.

 

[Bluehair]

Seems daft I know but if the double outdoor socket contains two single sockets then it can't be supplied from unfused spur. Not that I would really worry but that's still the rules. But with a fused spur it's OK.

I disagree. It's no different to a double socket.

 

[riveralt]

Seems daft I know but if the double outdoor socket contains two single sockets then it can't be supplied from unfused spur. Not that I would really worry but that's still the rules. But with a fused spur it's OK.

I disagree. It's no different to a double socket.

Agreed - total potential load (2 *13A) 26A - 2.5mm² T&E ccc 27A.
The circuit should be RCD protected.

Let the debate begin

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There can be no debate.

If it is 2 sockets it is 2 sockets, and no matter how much anybody says "yes but 2 x 13 is OK on a 2.5mm² cable", the regulations are completely clear - it is not allowed.

 

[riveralt]

There can be no debate.

If it is 2 sockets it is 2 sockets, and no matter how much anybody says "yes but 2 x 13 is OK on a 2.5mm² cable", the regulations are completely clear - it is not allowed.

Which regulation is it?

 

[JohnW2]

There can be no debate. If it is 2 sockets it is 2 sockets, and no matter how much anybody says "yes but 2 x 13 is OK on a 2.5mm² cable", the regulations are completely clear - it is not allowed.

That is certainly the standard interpretation of the regs. Although people sometimes comment that it's a bit daft, I don't recall every having seen anyone seriously challenge this interpretetation.

However, AFAICS, "the regulations are completely clear" only if one regards Appendix 15 ('Informative') as being part of the regulations - since it is in that Appendix that one finds the 'completely clear' statement "An [2.5mm²] unfused spur should feed one single or one twin socket only". 433.1.103, which allows 2.5mm² ring finals ("with or without unfused spurs") to be protected by a 30/32A OPD makes no reference to Appendix 15 and nor does it say anything about what is, or is not, allowed in terms of the unfused spurs it which it allows. I'm sure that most people 'assume' (even though we should never assume!) that Appendix 15 is, in this context, meant to be regarded as part of the regulations, but whether that is strictly/formlly true is, I suppose, open to debate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Which regulation is it?

As per what I've just posted, it's Appendix 15 - which you may or may not regard as 'a regulation' or 'part of the regs'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

Which regulation is it?

As per what I've just posted, it's Appendix 15 - which you may or may not regard as 'a regulation' or 'part of the regs'.

Kind Regards, John

BGB p276
Appendix 1 is normative, and thus a requirement.
All other appendices are informative, and are provided as guidance.

 

[JohnW2]

As per what I've just posted, it's Appendix 15 - which you may or may not regard as 'a regulation' or 'part of the regs'.

BGB p276 Appendix 1 is normative, and thus a requirement. All other appendices are informative, and are provided as guidance.

Indeed. I said that it was only Informative and therefore might not be regarded as part of the regulations.

However, if you dismiss the guidance of App 15, what are you going to do? As I said, 433.1.103 does not help - leaving us with no regulations about what can, and can't be connected to an unfused spur from a ring final. At the very least, an attempt to justify a 2.5mm² cable supplying two single sockets being protected by a 30/32A OPD would seem to introduce restrictions in terms of cable length and routing (i.e. if you were going to be relying on the downstream fuses in plugs to protect the cable). Is that what you had in mind?

I must say that, in all the many debates/discussions we've had about ring finals, I don't recall this one ever having arisen before - even 'awkward' people (like myself?!) seem to accept the guidance of App 15 in relation to this matter, even if they think it's daft

Kind Regards, John

 

[Bluehair]

There can be no debate.

If it is 2 sockets it is 2 sockets, and no matter how much anybody says "yes but 2 x 13 is OK on a 2.5mm² cable", the regulations are completely clear - it is not allowed.

Even it the double socket is what I would call a "modular device"?

 

[Bluehair]

There can be no debate.

Do you live in North Korea?

 

[JohnW2]

There can be no debate. If it is 2 sockets it is 2 sockets, and no matter how much anybody says "yes but 2 x 13 is OK on a 2.5mm² cable", the regulations are completely clear - it is not allowed.

Even it the double socket is what I would call a "modular device"?

There clearly is some room for debate, even accepting that (as riveralt and myself have said) we're actually talking about 'a guideline' rather than 'a regulation'.

In trying to decide whether the 'device' would satisfy those guidelines, it may come down to the matter of the 'rating' of the device. If the two halves of the device are each rated for 13A loads, then that 26A total is greater than the total safe load which a standard 'double socket' is rated for (20A or even 13A - another common debate!). The guidelines might therefore regard the device as representing a potential load that was ('unacceptably') greater than that which would be presented by a standard double socket.

Kind Regards, John