Part P and self certification

[diyisfree]

I am thinking of expanding a little after recently completeing quite a few bathrooms and kitchens for my customers.

I have always had to call in a spark to do the elecs and plumber to do the gas work although i am quite happy doing all the water work myself.

I have read a about a few courses that when completed will allow me certification that will allow me to make alterations and connections in kitchen's and Bathroom's without the need to call a spark.

Are there any limitations to these courses ? What i mean is, Will this then allow me to connect the cooker and re connect bonding to the water pipes and so on?

Thanks in advance.

 

[pcboffinuk]

Hi,

There are any number of places advertising courses out there now, and I did one myself back in February - but its not the whole story.

The only way you can avoid having a spark in is to become registered as a 'competent person' for the purposes of Part P, with one of the 5 bodies (NICEIC, ELECSA, etc). They do their own assessment, and then either accept you or not.

They all have slightly different requirements, but most of them accept the EAL VRQ Level 2 Certificate For Domestic Electrical Installers as initial confirmation of competence. This is the course most of the centres seem to offer over 5 days, though NICEIC also do one (and probably others).

Bear in mind that these courses are largely about how to comply with the regulations, covering installation testing and certification - you need to be fairly clued up on domestic electrical installations to pass it imo.

When you register, you can either register for full scope work, which would involve anything to do with domestical installs, or a defined scope scheme, which may cover only kitchen installations, or boiler installations, etc.

In either case, the body seem to charge you the same, but when they come out to assess you they restrict their assessment to the relavent type of work.

I am currently waiting to sort out my NICEIC assessment, so can't advise on that part yet, but feel free to ask further - someone on here will know the answer!

Regards

Gavin

 

[Paul Barker]

I have the eal level 2, and this week am doing bs2381. So far the bs2381 is a doddle after the eal course. I believe the eal course is extremely comprehensive, and if you take it all in all somone in your position needs.

If you decide to go full scope I am failrly certain it isn't anywhere near enough. You will need bs2381 and bs2391.

Why not do the first level, then do limited scope work as you named above for a year and if you want to go further when you have some experience under your belt give it a shot.

Like I say after eal level2 bs2381 holds no surprises, and the inspection and testing part of eal level 2 isn't actually that far behind 2391. 2391 is meant to be the difficult one, and yes I had sweat pouring off my brow, but I winged it. I wasn't aware that Napit were puting me through it, they said they wanted to test me for a couple of days. I got the shock of my life but at the end I said, right so now I just need to get 2381 and 2391 do I? The man said, that was 2391! No wander I was stretched to my limit.

Not sure you can do this route as while I was at Napit there were other guys having to do a 6 day course who already had some sort of qualification that entightled them to do limited scope work, but not sure what they had. Napit did ask me what other qualifications I had, and being corgi registered did seem to matter. (If only because they enjoy geting one over corgi). Like I say each entrant is assessed on his own merit. It is very tough assessment. A shouth african sparks trying to do work in UK failed the first day computer exam miserably, a UK sparks scraped the practical by the skin of his teeth, he hadn't got the eal inspection and testing experience and obviously hadn't done any in his working life.

Many people are qualified sparks but spend their entire life doing a very limited job in industry for their entire acreer and have nothing like the necessary background, though they qualify, so they find these tests extremely difficult.

 

[diyisfree]

Cheers guy's.

My intentions are just to be able to connect the oven and any other electrical appliance legally. wether its in the kitchen or bathroom.

There is nothing worse than fitting a kitchen for someone, then saying " right, i will come and finish off once the electrician has been " I am quite a meticulous person who ensures no corners are cut and certainly no bodging on the job.

My partner often moans at me that i am being too precise with what i do, but i take great pride in my work.

I know the basics regarding electrics and have created ring mains and lighting radials in the past but thats where it ends.

Where would i find the information necessary to be able to guide me through the relevant procedures for the exams ?

Here is what i do

Thanks once again guys.

 

[scousespark]

Like I say after eal level2 bs2381 holds no surprises, and the inspection and testing part of eal level 2 isn't actually that far behind 2391. 2391 is meant to be the difficult one, and yes I had sweat pouring off my brow, but I winged it. I wasn't aware that Napit were puting me through it, they said they wanted to test me for a couple of days. I got the shock of my life but at the end I said, right so now I just need to get 2381 and 2391 do I? The man said, that was 2391! No wander I was stretched to my limit.

Paul

The 2381 is a pre-requisite for 2391. The 2391 includes a written closed-book exam and a practical assessment. I don't see how you could pass the 2391 without knowing you were taking it. If Napit did enter you for the 2391, you should have received a certificate form the C&G. I've not come across any other instances of Napit awarding 2391 as part of their assessment. I would get back in touch with them, as you could find yourself in deep s**t if you carry out a PIR and miss something, but then find out you don't actually have the 2391.

 

[diyisfree]

So are you saying it isnt possible for me to obtain what is necessary to do what i wanted ?

 

[Paul Barker]

Paul

The 2381 is a pre-requisite for 2391. The 2391 includes a written closed-book exam and a practical assessment. I don't see how you could pass the 2391 without knowing you were taking it. If Napit did enter you for the 2391, you should have received a certificate form the C&G. I've not come across any other instances of Napit awarding 2391 as part of their assessment. I would get back in touch with them, as you could find yourself in deep s**t if you carry out a PIR and miss something, but then find out you don't actually have the 2391.

Yes it's very starnge, last three days I've beenat the Faraday centre getting 2381 which I passed in about 25 minutes of the 120 alocated.

Anyway I asked the guys there what they thought, well Ian actually. He said that he thought Napit must be using the 2391 board for the practical test and similar questions but that no it can't be bs2391 as that is just held quarterly by writen exam. So what I'll do is wait and see what actually arrives in the post from Napit, and be prepared to go in for the nationally acredited bs2391 at Faraday Centre this December.

I'm not holding my breath about the Napit qualification, but the man did say "that was 2391". It was very tough, so at the very least it was a good precursor.

Time will tell.

As I have had the eal level 2 for a year already I have been testing my own work anyway for some time, and I shant go out and do any period inspections until the situation is formalised one way or the other.

Ian also said that there was another body using the form of 2391 to test their people but he said liuke you that it isn't the nationally acredited qualification.

There is a feint hope that NApit have some special arrangement, so I will wait like I said to see what arrives, they definately said a qualification would be arriving in the post.

I'll keep you informed.

 

[Spark123]

You certainly don't need C&G2391 (not a BS btw) in order to do inspection and testing as this would mean that nobody without it can comply with the IEE regs. It is a good way of showing you can comply with the regs and most of the competent person schemes recognise C&G2391, although as far as I know it does not automatically get you recognised as a competent person without assessment by any of the schemes. I think most people would remember having to go through an assessment and sit a written exam for the C&G2391, you should also recieve a certificate providing you passed.

 

[Paul Barker]

Yes well it's all very confusing, the girl on the phone at Napit said "you have to come down to us for two days testing and then you have a year to get 2381 and 2391.

So after the "trade test" which I might say was the hardest thing I've had to wing in my life, I said to the tester "so now I have to go and get 2381 and 2391, to which he replied, no that was 2391. Moreover when the office girl rang me later she confirmed there was definately a qualification coming in the post.

So anyway I toddled off to get 2381 and am now awaiting what arrives in the post, if it transpires I still need c&g2391 then so be it, in December that's what I'll do.

OP you need a course like EAL level 2 or Niceic do a course there are probably others, which is a condensed lower level version of 2381 and 2391 that qaulifies you to do minor works and inspect and test your own work, but not return to inspect it periodically nor inspect anyone elses work. Additionally you have to be a member of a certifying body.

WQhen I did eal level2 it cost £800 and membership first year depending who you join is up to £500. You need test equipment £700. Insurance (mine is £850 but I am an employer and also I use a blow torch so mine is probably much more expensive than you will pay).

Welcome off the horse. Expensive innit! Just a tax on those who do things right.

 

[Paul Barker]

mildy off topic, my wife is absolutely sick of the amount we've spent on courses to keep up with what the rules now demand both on the gas side and the electrical.

I haven't the heart to tell her I now have to go and get oftec membership and qualification, because I've been offered a good opportunity which demands it.

The last two years profit has just gone into training, equipment and memberships.

The public conception of what I am earning is just way out, but I have the great advantage over most people of paddling my own canoe. That is worth a lot!

PS surely someone else here is full scope member of Napit? Speak up, what was your experience? Or any Napit inspectors lurking want to come out?

 

[scousespark]

You certainly don't need C&G2391 (not a BS btw) in order to do inspection and testing as this would mean that nobody without it can comply with the IEE regs. It is a good way of showing you can comply with the regs and most of the competent person schemes recognise C&G2391, although as far as I know it does not automatically get you recognised as a competent person without assessment by any of the schemes. I think most people would remember having to go through an assessment and sit a written exam for the C&G2391, you should also recieve a certificate providing you passed.

I wasn't saying you have to have 2391, but was pointing out that Paul should check with Napit to see exactly how he stands regarding his cover. I am with the NIC and have looked at switching to NAPIT. Their website shows they accept 2381 and 2391 but also have their own rules regarding accpeting people without these quals. It could be the inspector has applied the NAPIT rules.

 

[Paul Barker]

Yes I think you're right, I'll just have to wait and see, there are three possibilities at this moment in time.

1/ that Napit are happy that their in house trade test is sufficient.

2/ that it is sufficient for now but within a year I must obtain 2391.

3/ that they have got approval to run their own unique 2391 course and a proper certificate will arrive in the post as has been hinted at.

As I said the teacher I spoke to (Ian) at the Faraday centre where I get my training (I thoroughly recommend these people) thinks it's just a trade test and that 2391 is still required.

If so I'll sign up for it in December. He did show me a past paper, yes it's a tough one, and there is a high failure rate. Ho hum.

 

[owls]

I wasn't saying you have to have 2391, but was pointing out that Paul should check with Napit to see exactly how he stands regarding his cover. I am with the NIC and have looked at switching to NAPIT. Their website shows they accept 2381 and 2391 but also have their own rules regarding accpeting people without these quals. It could be the inspector has applied the NAPIT rules.

Out of interest, why are you considering moving from NIC to Napit?

 

[dingbat]

NAPIT are actually misleading their trainees with these courses. They call their courses/qualifications N2381 and N2391.

They have no special arrangement with City and Guilds, they are just using the number to make an in-house course sound more official. The real 2391 is a two-and-a-half-hour, closed book exam with a high pass mark and an overall poor pass rate - some centres regularly achieve less than 30% passes, because of the poor preparation of their students.

Another issue with NAPIT is how 'legal' their sign-now-get-qualified-later scheme is. It sounds to me a desperate ploy to win over exactly the kind of tradesmen that electricians have been warning about for years.

(For information, I was in both NAPIT and NICEIC for the first year of self-certification. I didn't renew my NAPIT membership last year because I wanted to be associated only with a professional body in all senses of the word.)

 

[Paul Barker]

Thanks for that, which probably explains my situation is a little shakey, so I'll enrol on the next cg2391 course up at Faraday. The guys there are great teachers with much experience in electrical trades. (Despite the fact of the three who were on 2391 while I was doing 2381 they weren't sure if any would pass).

I must admit at a read through a past paper I wouldn't have passed without training but I'd have got 50% from existing head knowledge. Hopefully they can fil my head with sufficient last minute cramming to get me through.

The practical shouldn't be aproblem as it is the same board as Napit use, which lets be honest is only a little challenging. It's a bit like the gas practical, just expect faults everywhere you turn, have a keen eye for them, and do all your tests in the right order. I use criper as a memory method.