Party Wall Agreement

[uk1234]

Hello thought I would try posting this here.

Our neighbours have asked us to sign a party wall agreement for a proposed loft extension and we are not sure what to do.

The house in question is a 1900s 2 bed semi. The neighbours plan to extend in to the loft by putting a dormer on the back of the property, velux on the front and also create shower room in the loft by extending over the existing bathroom at the rear.

I understand that under the Party Wall Act if there are any disputes a surveyor can be appoint to examine the proposals and make a judgement - however this would be at our neighbours expense.

I have no objection with the principal of them extending their house, but I am an concerned about the possible effects on my property. We moved in 6 months ago and when moving in our survey identified issues with out house - roof bowing due to velux windows being added to our roof without proper strengthening. The chimney breasts have also been removed on our side of the wall and we do now what has been put in their place.

My concern is that the neighbours works could make our roof issue worse or the lack of chimney breasts on our side of the wall could cause the party wall to be weaker.

Do you think these are realistic concerns? How could I take this forward?

 

[Nakajo]

These are the sort of concerns that the Party Wall Award seeks to alleviate. Effectively, you establish an agreement that if the Works cause damage to your property then they are rectified at your neighbour's expense.

It is in your neighbour's interest to create the Award, in order to establish the condition of your side of the wall prior to commencing any work. If they failed to do this, and you subsequently sued them for alleged damage to your wall, the Courts have previously placed the burden of proof on the defendant!

If a Party Wall Surveyor is appointed, this individual will act within the interests of the wall. They will survey the condition of the wall and advise on/record any structural requirements/coping details, etc. as well as any payments due to you for things like shared enjoyment of wall (if appropriate). If you're concerned that they might not act impartially, or properly represent your interests then you are entitled to dissent, and insist that a separate Surveyor is appointed of your choosing (and at your neighbour's expense). You can also elect to do nothing which has the same effect as dissenting, but means delay for your neighbour and is a bit antisocial. If these two surveyors fail to agree on an Award (a rare event), then a 3rd surveyor must be appointed to mediate.

If you are on generally good terms with your neighbour and satisfied that the works they're proposing are reasonably straightforward then it's probably reasonable to agree to the award. However, if you have concerns (as you seem to) then advise them accordingly that you will be wanting to instruct your own PWS at their expense (these costs have to be reasonable).

Is the dormer full width?

 

[tony1851]

They will survey the condition of the wall and advise on/record any structural requirements/coping details,

TBH, I've never known of a PWA surveyor actually climbing into a loft space to examine/photograph/record the existing condition of the party wall.

Presumably they don't want to get their sharp suits dirty, and don't carry ladders in their Beamers

But to me it begs the question; if the neighbour's work caused a crack in the party wall, unless someone has recorded the state of the wall prior to the work (ie actually gone up in the loft) how would anyone know whether the crack was old or new?

 

[Nakajo]

Why are you asking me?

 

[mfarrow]

We recently went through something similar as your neighbour. The letter in standard template form reads quite formal, it's up to your neighbours to try and alleviate any concerns you might have by giving you drawings etc and actually explaining whats going to happen, as we did in a separate letter (they, landlord, live 200 miles away).

To be honest a crack in a wall in the loft isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, but it depends on what they do to the party wall and i presume they want to put a steel into it? If so they should be telling you how they're protecting the wall and your side in particular ie being careful no big breaker to make the hole etc.

 

[jeds]

Hello thought I would try posting this here.

Our neighbours have asked us to sign a party wall agreement for a proposed loft extension and we are not sure what to do.

The house in question is a 1900s 2 bed semi. The neighbours plan to extend in to the loft by putting a dormer on the back of the property, velux on the front and also create shower room in the loft by extending over the existing bathroom at the rear.

I understand that under the Party Wall Act if there are any disputes a surveyor can be appoint to examine the proposals and make a judgement - however this would be at our neighbours expense.

I have no objection with the principal of them extending their house, but I am an concerned about the possible effects on my property. We moved in 6 months ago and when moving in our survey identified issues with out house - roof bowing due to velux windows being added to our roof without proper strengthening. The chimney breasts have also been removed on our side of the wall and we do now what has been put in their place.

My concern is that the neighbours works could make our roof issue worse or the lack of chimney breasts on our side of the wall could cause the party wall to be weaker.

Do you think these are realistic concerns? How could I take this forward?

What you do depends on who has been appointed on the other side. If the neighbour has appointed a chartered surveyor who is independent from him (in other words not the blokes brother or something) then I would suggest dissenting from the notice but appointing the same surveyor as joint surveyor. The surveyor should carry out a condition survey of your property to record the condition of your side and that survey should form part of the party wall award. The award should also include details of exactly what is proposed, how the works will be carried out, how your property will be protected and what would happen should there be any damage. That would be in the form of drawings, specification, structural engineer reports etc.

Alternatively - if the neighbours surveyor is his best mate - do the same but appoint your own surveyor.

 

[jeds]

They will survey the condition of the wall and advise on/record any structural requirements/coping details,

TBH, I've never known of a PWA surveyor actually climbing into a loft space to examine/photograph/record the existing condition of the party wall.

Presumably they don't want to get their sharp suits dirty, and don't carry ladders in their Beamers

But to me it begs the question; if the neighbour's work caused a crack in the party wall, unless someone has recorded the state of the wall prior to the work (ie actually gone up in the loft) how would anyone know whether the crack was old or new?

Tony, I don't recognise this at all. I don't do many PWAs - maybe half a dozen or so per year - but all the ones I have done have included pretty decent condition surveys. People seem to think the condition survey protects and benefits the adjoining surveyor but it doesn't. Well, partly it does but it is really more to protect the building owner against claims for historic damage. You know how it goes, a bit of knocking and banging about next door and suddenly people start looking up at their walls and corners and roof spaces like they've never done before and they are convinced that every hairline wasn't there before and the house is falling down. If you are a surveyor and find yourself facing claims with no decent record of the roof and party wall condition - that you were appointed, trusted and paid to carry out - you are in trouble.

 

[uk1234]

These are the sort of concerns that the Party Wall Award seeks to alleviate. Effectively, you establish an agreement that if the Works cause damage to your property then they are rectified at your neighbour's expense.

It is in your neighbour's interest to create the Award, in order to establish the condition of your side of the wall prior to commencing any work. If they failed to do this, and you subsequently sued them for alleged damage to your wall, the Courts have previously placed the burden of proof on the defendant!

If a Party Wall Surveyor is appointed, this individual will act within the interests of the wall. They will survey the condition of the wall and advise on/record any structural requirements/coping details, etc. as well as any payments due to you for things like shared enjoyment of wall (if appropriate). If you're concerned that they might not act impartially, or properly represent your interests then you are entitled to dissent, and insist that a separate Surveyor is appointed of your choosing (and at your neighbour's expense). You can also elect to do nothing which has the same effect as dissenting, but means delay for your neighbour and is a bit antisocial. If these two surveyors fail to agree on an Award (a rare event), then a 3rd surveyor must be appointed to mediate.

If you are on generally good terms with your neighbour and satisfied that the works they're proposing are reasonably straightforward then it's probably reasonable to agree to the award. However, if you have concerns (as you seem to) then advise them accordingly that you will be wanting to instruct your own PWS at their expense (these costs have to be reasonable).

Is the dormer full width?

Yes its a full width dormer so we be supported on the party wall.

I think that if there were no issues with our house then I would happily have signed the agreement already as it appears to be just standard loft conversion - inserting steels to support the floor and building up a dormer to the rear. We dont know the neigbhours well but dont think there woul be an issue getting minor damage repaired eg builder being abit aggressive when breaking out to insert the steels.

Im more worried about whether the work could impact on our roof which is already not in the best of states. However i dont know if i am being overly concerned given that the rear dormer is built up on the partt wall so that load will be transferre down the wall.

Im considering asking for an independent surveyor to be appointed to record condition before an after but this will easily go into the thousands in costs for them (we are in london). And they could then ask us to go down the same route when we want to add additional strengthening work to our roof that might involve the party wall.

One other option im considering is for us to both jointly photograph the wall and agree condition before and after. are there any down sides to this approach if gomething goes wrong?

thank you

 

[Nakajo]

On full-width dormers, many neighbours fail to insist that the party wall is built up to the full-height of the dormer. This makes it difficult for the neighbour to then build their own dormer adjacent to this at a later date.


You and your neighbour can administer to all of this yourselves. The cost of the two party wall surveyors would be in the order of £1300. Others here will vociferously disagree, but personally, I think this is a trivial expense when dealing with property in London.

 

[tony1851]

On full-width dormers, many neighbours fail to insist that the party wall is built up to the full-height of the dormer.

I agree and it does make for a more practical job if the cheek can be built up off the party wall.

However, I've found that some LPAs interpret this to mean that some of the cheek (even if it's only the thickness of tiles) goes over the boundary and hence the dormer is not p.d.

Whether that's right or wrong I don't know.