Patio build - anything to be aware of? (with pics!)

[whoschuffed]

Hi all, figured its that time of year to get out in the garden and get it sorted ready for Summer. Only been in the house about 6 months so I've got rid of some awful decking that was in place and we want to get a patio down.

I want to give this a go myself instead of paying for someone (at the moment anyway, if I end up ripping my hair out i'll call in the pro's!). I've cleared the area we want for the patio and just dug a small channel which i'll expand to either build a small retaining wall of sorts or just use edging stones.

What I have uncovered is that under all the gravel is the original asphalt garden paths. These run out in front of the french doors at the back and right round the side of the house (to the front). This is all area I want to lay the new patio so my initially reaction is to get a breaker, break it up into small bits and then get down a couple of tonnes of Type 1's down on it and whack it all down to create my base to lay whatever flags we go with.

Here are a couple of pics to give you an idea of what it looks like at the moment.

There's a couple of things i'm undecided with at the moment and that is how to construct the edging of the patio. I was hoping I could build something akin to the following photo...

Where I build a very low "wall" maybe 1-2 courses of brick high and then run the flags over the top to the edge so its flush with the edge as opposed to using concrete edging and butting up to it.

Is there anything in particular I need to do to make this work? How many courses of brick down do I need to go? I'm assuming it would be prudent to lay these on a concrete bed?

Also, as I am going to be breaking up the asphalt that is already there, can I use this with some of the type 1's that will be going down to in fill some of the deeper areas or does it all need to be whizzed? A family member said I could potentially lay slabs over it but I think for piece of mind i'd rather just get it all up and start afresh.

I'll be making the patio slope away from the house and will eventually be laying artificial grass down on the rest of the garden when I've finished up with the patio so I may put a small french drain in around the outside to assist with the drainage.

Sorry for the long post, amateur DIY'er here so want to make sure I know exactly what i'm doing at every stage to make sure it goes without hitch. Not in any rush to complete it, have got plenty of weekends free and days off over the next few months so should hopefully be able to make good progress and sling some pics up if people are interested.

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If you'd asked (click on "report" below) we could have moved it
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[Will..]

You will need to take about another 4 inch off what you already have. I'd be tempted tell you to get a digger driver in on a micro digger unless you fancy some long hard evenings. Typical build up will be 4 inch MOT type 1 (compacted) and then a sharp sand and cement mix as bedding material. Some people will butt slabs up, some will point a 10mm gap.
Do you want a brick front edge? It looks like your garden is pretty level so instead of digging 6 inch off your lawn for no reason, I'd just have the lawn flush with the slabs.
Remember to keep 150mm minimum (2 course of bricks) from your DPC to top of slabs.

 

[whoschuffed]

Hi mate, thanks for having a quick read of my plans/idea and offering some suggestions.

I'll be hiring a breaker tomorrow to break up the asphalt and get it cleared so that should take me down a good couple of inches once its cleared out. I'll probably go down a little bit deeper round the side of the house as it is naturally a bit lower than the rest of the garden but it is already way lower than the DPC (4-5 bricks in areas) - i'll make sure I get it all leveled out then flattened though. Then i'll be putting down around 2-3 inch of Type 1s and giving it a good whacking as it should be a fair bit lower overall once I've got rid of the asphalt.

Question about the asphalt I break up, can I throw this in any low bits to form part of the foundation or am I better off just getting rid of it all completely? Just wondered if it would be good if its whacked in with the Type 1's?

I would like the brick front edge, yes. The idea was to have it sort of split level so the area immediately in front of the French doors would be raised a bit, then you would step down on the right hand side where the path is going under the kitchen window and round the side. So this side may well be near enough ground level.

In terms of laying the small brick wall. What is the best way to go about it? Get some pegs and string in to get my levels and then dig trenches quite wide and deep and lay a bed of concrete down so the bricks can be laid on them and the build the bricks up off that?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[WabbitPoo]

If you really need to dislodge the old paths, then by all means chuck it down as part of your whacked base. As for the wall at the front edge of the patio, you just need a single course of red or blue engineering bricks underground (so you can't see the foundation), and yes, lay a concreate strip foundation for it first.

The key is to get your levels properly sorted with pegs, string, spririt level etc way before starting laying anything. That way you can be sure that, once you have built up your bricks, they arrive at the right height for your paving to slope down to it from the house.

If your ground is any firmer than it looks you might not need a full 4-6" on MoT under it all, especially if you lay slabs on a full wet mortar mix (which you should!)

 

[whoschuffed]

If you really need to dislodge the old paths, then by all means chuck it down as part of your whacked base. As for the wall at the front edge of the patio, you just need a single course of red or blue engineering bricks underground (so you can't see the foundation), and yes, lay a concreate strip foundation for it first.

The key is to get your levels properly sorted with pegs, string, spririt level etc way before starting laying anything. That way you can be sure that, once you have built up your bricks, they arrive at the right height for your paving to slope down to it from the house.

If your ground is any firmer than it looks you might not need a full 4-6" on MoT under it all, especially if you lay slabs on a full wet mortar mix (which you should!)

Thanks for the pointers mate, hopefully tomorrow i'll have it all broken up so will have a better lie of the land to see how is best to progress. I've kept a pile of rubble and broken bricks etc to one side in case I needed to fill anything in that is deep.

In terms of the bricks that I use that are going to be underground for the border do I have to use an engineering brick or can I use a concrete common brick for the first course then use a normal brick or engineering brick. Or is it best if I just use an engineering brick?

Once I've got all the breaking up done i'll look at marking out the area properly with some string and get my levels then so I know how to deep to go with my bricks and to get them to come up to the right level.

 

[WabbitPoo]

not sure what you mean by concrete common bricks, but anyway, use an engineering brick underground, and preferably above ground too (true common bricks are prone to flaking off in wet then cold weather in the garden in my experience)

 

[whoschuffed]

Sorry, I was referring to something like this...

http://georgehill-timber.co.uk/shop/bricks/bricks/

 

[Will..]

Might as well just build the lot in engineering bricks rather than having to change part way.
Personally I'd cart off your asphalt rather than mixing it in with the type 1. It's designed so that it 'locks' together to form a solid base with a good blend of fines and larger pieces. Getting your levels right for the concrete base for your wall is important. Last thing you want to be doing is cutting splits for the bottom course. Tolerance I'd say is 3-4mm a course underground. We normally get them +- 5mm.

 

[whoschuffed]

I haven't mixed much in to be honest. The majority is in a huge pile waiting till I get around to ordering a skip! The breaker made short work of the majority of what was down though, there was 3 different layers of asphalt which once I'd done some initial breaking was pretty easy to take up with the shovel.

Yeh that's the thing I'm thinking i'm going to struggle with the most is getting the concrete level for the bricks. I'm going to dig the trench quite wide and deep and then get some string and pegs in to get me a level to work with. Then get the concrete down and make sure it all is still level!

Easier said than done for a novice though!

How deep would you say the concrete base for the bricks needs to be?

 

[Will..]

I'd say 150mm. Solid enough that it wont move over time.

Are you mixing on site? My advice would be definately don't mix by hand. After a couple of barrow fulls you'll be nackered. Either use a mixer (still a maul) or even better get it delivered. Some companies will deliver as low as 1/4 cube.

 

[whoschuffed]

Quite deep then. I probably will mix it by hand to be honest, going to go and pick up some cement and sand tomorrow, got plenty of small stones to mix in with it too.

I'll see how I get on doing it by hand, I like a challenge. I've got a big mixing tubs I can use. I'm not in any major rush to get anything done so I'm under no illusions it will probably take me a while but if I can everything dug up properly, the concrete down and levelled out tomorrow then I'll be happy! Weather permitting that is!

 

[chris_o]

If you're going to be knocking up for the all the slabbing as well, I would definitely buy a second hand belle mixer off of ebay, then just flog it on when you're done. Trust me, it will be worth it!

 

[r896neo]

If you plan to lay the flags too buy or borrow a mixer. It will be very demoralising mixing up a full barrow of mortar only for it to be swallowed up under 2 flags. 600x600's

 

[Schinklegroover]

I'd agree with Will re: the asphalt, better just to get rid. In a previous job we did a lot of demolition and asphalt was considered to be a contaminant so any bituminous material had to be carted off. Also, it'll be a bugger to break up, as Will says, and won't behave in the same way as crush/type 1 when you're trying to level it all out.

We've just had a patio laid and the lads spent a lot of time carting dry concrete and sand mix from the mixer to the patio for the base, and also used a mixer to get the bedding for some flat top kerbs at the edge of the drive so the suggestion of buying a cheap mixer and flogging it when you're finished sounds like a sensible approach.