PD and the planner who doesn't know what it is!

[stevek54]

Following on from my earlier post about PD. We submitted plans and a PD checklist which we believed our plans conformed to a planner who had previously said he was happy to look at as many drawings as we cared to submit for opinion. After having our PD request for two weeks he has now said he can't answer our question because it involves PD! He wants us to submit a householder enquiry form which will take a further 3 weeks.

Surely a planning officer can tell from drawings and submissions whether they conform to a list of PD requirements? To a layman like me who can read the legislation it seems fairly clear. Either something is PD or it isn't.

Our options seem to be speaking to his manager or a local councillor or both. I have also seen mentioned in the PD guidance compensation but it is vague on how to claim and who we claim against.

Any advice on either planning rules or relaxation exercises would be welcome.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

What you have experienced is merely the ineptitude of local authorities and is not unusual. Even a submission of the proper form and its response will not be official (it will state as much). Did your architect conduct these enquiries or did you? The only thing that will be official would be the submission (and its consequential approval) of an application for a Certificate of Lawful Development. If you are as confident as you say you are and given that you expect objections once the build starts (you mentioned objections were expected during your recent application) you should apply for such a Certificate and be done with it and your architect should have advised the same. Delays dealt with before the build starts will be far easier and cheaper to manage than once the build commences.

Frankly though there's no point getting your knickers in a twist about it, do you really think that occupying a councillors time for this or trying to sue the council would be in the public interest? The head of planning will (on the face of it) defend their staff. Your third option is merely to move on.

 

[stevek54]

That's easy enough to say Freddie but when someone who in their professional capacity gives advice which we have followed you expect them to follow that through. Why couldn't he tell 2 1/5 weeks ago that we should follow the route he's now suggesting? Is he hoping it will be allocated to another planner who does know what they are doing? If so that re-allocation should take place now.

All we are asking is to be treated fairly and properly. Nothing more.

 

[DevilDamo]

Surely a planning officer can tell from drawings and submissions whether they conform to a list of PD requirements?

It's not that simple. There's a little more to it than just examining drawings in trying to establish whether or not proposals fall under PD.

The majority of LPA's will not even offer PD advice because that is what the Certificate of Lawfulness is for. They can however offer pre-application advice on formal applications.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

That's easy enough to say Freddie

Unfortunately it is easy to say as it is the situation. I and many others come up against this kind of incompetence for my small jobs all the time, planners are a law unto themselves. Come the revolution!

 

[stevek54]

So is the correct route to a solution to apply for a lawful development certificate rather than a Householder Enquiry form which in the case of the latter is what we thought we were doing when the planner invited the dialogue with us.

Does a Certificate of Lawfulness allow you to start work or can you still be prevented?

All the stuff I've read on PD infers that it was introduced to simplify things. Heaven help us if they had intended to make it more complicated.

 

[DevilDamo]

Firstly, the planning system is never easy and they haven't made it easy by introducing further application forms and fee's in dealing with PD. However, what's done is done and surprisingly, there are some positives to the system.

Anyway, back to the original question. If you're confident your proposals fall within PD and you would like it officially confirmed, then yes... apply for a CoL. It will take up to 8 weeks for a decision and will attract a fee of £75 if you apply for it now (i.e. before the works commence) or it'll be £150 if you apply for it during or after the works have been completed.

The householder enquiry forms are normally associated with formal planning applications. The CoL route has been designated for PD works.

If the works are PD, then you can start. You don't "need" to wait for the CoL to be approved or even submitted. The certification is merely for your peace of mind. However, bear in mind that some applications (not really CoL's) may contain pre-commencement conditions preventing you from starting work on site until condition(s) have been formally discharged. This is another application procedure, attracts another 8 weeks and another fee. But for householder extensions, you shouldn't have any issues with pre-commencement conditions. They're usually associated with larger works (e.g. new houses).

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

The PD system is largely simple but like everything you need to understand the rules and correct procedures. No offence but that's why you employ professionals who understand the system. Due to the legal ramifications no advice ever gained from a Planning Department can ever be relied upon 100%. That is why there will always be a disclaimer attached to anything they say or write to you prior to any formal decision.

Planning law is not like criminal law, that is you are guilty until proven innocent and in effect if you commence a building project and the planners do not believe it is lawful it is then down to the homeowner to prove the development is lawful before you can continue building. Or in other words you would have to get approval from planning be that a full planning approval or a Certificate of Lawful Development if it falls under PD.

Therefore whilst it is perfectly possible to build either without a CLD or prior to its issue, if you think your neighbour will object once the development is commenced you could get a visit from the planners who may ask you to stop whilst you then have to wait for approval. So its a risk. A build that stops halfway leaving you with a hole in the ground, an unhappy builder and maybe takes 4 months for said builder to fit you in again etc can be a high price to pay.

 

[stevek54]

Can you tell mr what the CoLD process is? Does a planner visit? Do they seek comments from neighbours and councillors as they do for planning? What happens in the 8 weeks between application and decision?

 

[DevilDamo]

A Certificate of Lawfulness application is quite similar to a formal planning application. The differences being the fee is only £75.00 if you apply for the certificate before the works commence (or £150.00 if the works have started or are completed). Even though it's a different application form, the questions are quite similar. Drawings still need to be provided as you would do with a normal application. Some LPA's would send out neighbour notifications but the neighbours can only object on the grounds whether or not the development is lawful. They have no say regarding planning issues as you're applying to confirm the works are PD. You should receive an approval or refusal within the eight weeks. In the unlikely event you receive a refusal, you do have a choice to re-submit with amended details free of charge, providing the design is similar and the re-submitted application is done within x amount of time.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

The huge difference is that a CLD is guaranteed provided it conforms to the rules.

 

[DevilDamo]

Haha! So is a formal planning application

 

[stevek54]

Well we have done as the planner asked and completed a Householder Enquiry form so that he can tell us formally whether or not we need planning permission or whether it falls within PD. Why he couldn't have formally responded to our questions and plans I don't know. I suppose you must have the right form! So now we wait for up to 18 working days for a response.

We have also completed a CoLD application for the single storey extension which we are sure is PD, at least when our design is compared to the Government's PD check list.

 

[lpasengland]

Hi Steve,

As others had said, your best option is probably to apply for a certificate of lawfulness, and (ideally) to ensure that you have the approved decision notice before you start work. Legally, a certificate is the only way that the Council can formally confirm to you that the works would definitely be PD - and if you sell your property in the future then the certificate may well be required by your buyer , particularly if the works are substantial (e.g. an extension).

If you don't apply for a certificate, then any advice that you receive from the Council - whether it's a phone call, email, or letter on headed paper - will not be legally binding. Indeed, their response will almost certainly contain a disclaimer stating as such, and even if it doesn't contain such a disclaimer then caselaw indicates that the Council would still be able to take enforcement action.

This might sound like a long-winded system, but it's designed to protect the rights of neighbours. When an officer gives you an opinion, it's just an informal opinion, and should be treated as such rather than relied on. The difference with a certificate is that it involves a much more thorough process - normally involving a site visit, checking the planning history for your property, and checking of the officer's recommendation by 1 or 2 managers who should be much more experience than the individual officer.

I appreciate why it sounds like the officer has been incompetent. However, please bear in mind that many Council planning departments are severely under-staffed (due to lack of budget), which means that a lot of planning officers have far too high a workload to be able to complete everything to a decent standard.

For example, I've worked in 3 different Council planning departments, 2 parts of the NHS, and 5 different private companies (the latter weren't planning related). Personally I've found the Council planning departments to be a far more excessive workload (and therefore much more stressful) than the private companies. Obviously, I'm sure there are people who have found the opposite - I guess it depends on the particular local authority and the particular private company. However, it's often struck me that whether a person is incompent and chooses not to do all their work properly, or whether they have too high a workload and it's impossible for them to do all their work property - the resulting appearance (from the public's point of view) is the same.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[stevek54]

Hi, Steve

Thanks for your post. We have applied for a CoLD and a Householder Enquiry Form to avoid any doubt as to whether or not our rear extension and loft conversion are PD or need planning permission. On the loft PD our local authority says on its website that all loft conversions have to have planning permission even though the government's planning portal suggests they don't! Very confusing.

I think the frustrating thing is that there is a lack of clear communication. Since we submitted our original plans and were advised they wouldn't be approved the planner we dealt with has given every indication (on the phone and in email) that we were in dialogue and he was giving us advice on what he wouldn't allow. Put another way were under the impression that we have been in the "Do we planning permission?" phase for several weeks. So it was frustrating to be told, late in the process, that we must start again, which we have.

On your point about workloads. I am also employed in the public sector and I think what annoys people in their dealings with local government officers or civil servants is that we don't communicate very well. We hum and err. We don't always give a straight answer to a straight question. Heavy workloads and redundancies is also an excuse that my friends who work for the private sector just laugh at. They've lived with those two foes for years. (Sorry I've gone off topic a bit!).

Anyway we've learned a lot of lessons in the past 12 months of trying to improve our home and there are too many to list in this small post!

Thanks again to everyone on this forum who has given me lot's of helpful advice.