Permitted Development (age of building < 1948)

[Chonk42]

I wonder if someone can help me. I have an outbuilding (a "shed" a brick built structure with a pitched roof) behind my house within 5 metres of the house. I would like to use this to gain more metres for an extension as this is a new line to the property. Has anyone had experiece with such an application and can offer advice?

Also a little snag is that this outhouse is not on any plans, I have done searches for historical maps/plans but non have the building on them. Does anyone know how I can get this added or proven that it is older than 1948?

Many many thanks

Jon

 

[Richard C]

I have an outbuilding (a "shed" a brick built structure with a pitched roof) behind my house within 5 metres of the house. I would like to use this to gain more metres for an extension as this is a new line to the property. Has anyone had experiece with such an application and can offer advice?

Why are you following such a perverse route, have you already had a planning application for an extension refused?

Also a little snag is that this outhouse is not on any plans, I have done searches for historical maps/plans but non have the building on them. Does anyone know how I can get this added or proven that it is older than 1948?
Many many thanks
Jon

If it’s not listed on the plans or in the searches then the chances are, it’s not recorded; why do you want to prove it’s older than 1948?

 

[^woody^]

You can pick up any OS map section and the chances are that something which has been there for years and years is not recorded.

If the council tries that one, its an easy argument to disprove. Its quite fun too to see their reliance on the "all seeing map" crumble when you say something like "Hmmmm, why is the council office not on this map?"

Also just by looking at it, there is a good chance that it will be clear if the outbuilding was built at the same time as the main house. Take a picture

But I cant see the relevance of why this needs to be proved to have been there all this time

 

[Chonk42]

Thanks for the replies.

On my house I would only be granted 3 metres onto the back of the house. The outhouse is set a metre from the house and goes out about 4 metres. this moves the line of my house much further out giving me about 5 metres which would definitely be refused otherwise. Also I am doing a loft conversion now and I dont want to lose permitted development due to this outhouse - so I have been told if I can prove it was always there ie before 1st july 1948. Otherwise I can demolish it to avoid losing permitted allowance.

thanks

Jon

 

[hotrod]

IIRC a 'bog standard' loft conversion (e.g. a few veluxs) will not count towards your permitted development rights so I wouldn't worry about that.

 

[joe-90]

Maybe I'm being thick, but I don't see what the outhouse has to do with your planning application for your house. The outhouse was never a habitable structure so why are you suddenly claiming that it will give you some sort of building rights? If I said there was an old toilet at the bottom of my garden 20 metres from the house - would that entitle me to build a 20 metre extension?
Same difference.

 

[^woody^]

Yes you are [being] thick

If the outhouse is already there, then it can be incorporated into the proposed extension to form a bigger extension than may be possible under PD rights alone

 

[joe-90]

Same for an old garage then?

 

[^woody^]

Same what?

Planning policy makes no distinction between the type of outbuilding in this context

 

[joe-90]

OK well give us the detail. How far can the structure be from the house before it is no-longer counted as part of a permissible development right?

If it's a 5 metre building and 5 metres from the house - can i call that a 10 metre allowance?

What are the regs?

Does it matter what it is made of? Clinker block? Mud hut? Log cabin? Concrete floor, mud floor?

Can't see it myself, it would have been used as a development loophole for decades if it were true.

 

[^woody^]

The location of, or existence of an existing outbuilding is irrelevant to PD rights.

PD rights allow an extension, or several extensions up to either 50 or 70m3 in total.

So lets say there is an outbuilding 5m from the house.

An extension (of a volume as per above) can then be built between the house and outbuilding, and then the outbuilding can join onto the new extension and be converted, to create a bigger overall extension.

If the out building was not there, then the homeowner would have to apply for permission for the whole extension, as it would be bigger than allowed under PD rights. And it is possible that the permission would not be granted for various reasons if it contravened local planning policy.

For the OP's purpose, it seems that he needs to prove that this brick shed was already there so that he can build a bigger extension overall, by annexing it into an extension done under PD.

'Development' is the key word and what constitutes development has been defined over the years so "Clinker block, Mud hut, Log cabin, Concrete floor, mud floor" are "operations" and "development" which would fall under planning control remit. Simple things like a fence and a flagpole are 'development'

 

[joe-90]

Right, so in effect he simply has to get approval for the 'bit' between the outbuilding and the house? Think I've got that right?

 

[Chonk42]

Thank you all so much for the advice.

This is indeed correct that I would like to eventually use the end line of the outhouse in an extension.

I have an separate issues with this. I only plan to do the main extension in a couple of years, and am in the process of starting a loft conversion with dormer. I will get permission for this under permitted development but I am being told since the outhouse is within 5 metres of the house it could be classified as an extension and affect the amount of PD I am allowed. So in my plans I need to say this will be demolished, unless I can prove this outhouse was built with the original house or before 1st July 1948. I have been through historical maps and archives and have not found this on any deeds. Does anyone know what I can do to prove the age of the building?

Many thanks

 

[Chri5]

Consult a surveyor ?

Forensic tests, simple ones should be able to test for age- brick type, mortar, roof materials, weathering, services (if it has any).
A surveyor is likely to be pretty accurate just with a simple viewing, lead pipes, bakelite electric fittings, build materials, window and door styles- all give clues.

The foundations would need a check, or would you simply pull it down and start with a clean plot?

 

[^woody^]

Its normally blatantly obvious if things were built at the same time, just by looking at the bricks, the joints or the general construction.

Unless there are major differences, then it is assumed that construction took place at the same time, and it will be hard for the planners to prove otherwise without more compelling evidence to disprove it.

An OS map is not enough