PIR coach lanterns keep breaking?

[VerticalTobe]

Hi all,

I'm after some advice about my external lights. I know nothing about electrics so wondered if someone could throw me some pointers about what could be going on.

Have several coach style PIR lanterns on the outside of the house (the ASD ones sold by Screwfix). Getting some odd behaviour from them - each time there's a different light that seems to be playing up. I had some replaced thinking the units were faulty and all has been fine for a couple of months. Now they've started playing up again.

Have had two electricians check the wiring to the outside and both have said all is okay.

Setup is:

3 lanterns at front of house on their own switch (no issues with these)

1 lantern on one side of the house on its own switch (no issues with this one)

3 lanterns at the back of the property and 1 more to the other side of the house - all on the same switch (these are all the 4 that have been giving me grief).

Lights are supposed to work on the PIR but with the over ride on the switch to keep them on for an 8 hour period if you flick them on and off rapidly.

Faults have included;

- random light coming on when powered on but then staying on instead of exiting testing mode after 30 seconds

- random light not coming on when powered on. Then coming on for no apparent reason some time later and refusing to go off until the power is cut at the switch.

- light coming on and then going straight off and refusing to trigger again (so does not even stay in testing mode for 30 seconds).

When I say random, it's random in so far as one will suddenly start playing up and then continue to exhibit that behaviour until the unit is replaced.

No visible signs of water ingress to them and all siliconed up properly as per the instructions for extra protection.

I noticed today in the instructions it says

" 100w maximum bulbs to be fitted" (which I think is what the electrician used - can't check as the print is faded but they're the large old style ones). Then straight after it says "250w maximum total".

Is it as simple as 4x100w on one switch being too far over what it should be and causing damage to the sensors? Or am I overly simplifying this?

 

[Lectrician]

Does each have its own PIR? When one triggers, does it trigger the rest? The 250watt would be the maximum switching of the PIR, so if one PIR switches the rest, it's overloaded.

 

[VerticalTobe]

Ah that makes sense now - but no, each has its own separate PIR on the unit so they operate independent of one another.

(these are the ones tttp://www.screwfix.com/p/asd-100w-black-coach-lantern-wall-light-pir-included/51500)

Beginning to wonder if it's just really crappy build quality and the sensors are prone to failure - at this rate I'll be going through the equivalent of a light every three months.

 

[Echo the husky]

Shouldn't be, I love ASD and always recommend them, have fitted loads over the years. Not had any returns yet!

Perhaps electrical interference that side of the house, or in that wiring. There was a thread on here where the OP was having problems with PIR lights caused by interference from those awful 'powerline' ethernet over the mains adaptors.

 

[securespark]

I can vouch for what husky is saying (barking?), I have used shed-loads of ASD and never had a dud.

Good bit of kit!

Best thing (but a pain) is to connect a fitting that has NEVER misbehaved to the wiring of one that is currently being norty and see what happens.

EDIT: I see you have replaced some already. That will not work then.

You could try it arse about face: fit a norty fitting to the wiring of one that has not been norty.

Is it now being good?

 

[EFLImpudence]

(barking?),

I have used shed-loads

There was one of them on the motorway the other day.
Is that where you get/got your parts?

 

[VerticalTobe]

Thanks for the comments all, it's taken me until this weekend to try things out.

Shouldn't be, I love ASD and always recommend them, have fitted loads over the years. Not had any returns yet!

Perhaps electrical interference that side of the house, or in that wiring. There was a thread on here where the OP was having problems with PIR lights caused by interference from those awful 'powerline' ethernet over the mains adaptors.

No Powerline adapters in use - I can't think of anything similar being used that could cause interference (only thing I can possibly think of is a mains wired house alarm but that's on a separate circuit if that would even make a difference?)

It also gets more confusing. As suggested I replaced the light that was not working with one that was working. The replacement light came on fine, suggesting the original unit was defective. Swapped them back as they were, the original defective light continued to be defective. So that means another one has gone bust for some reason.

Then I take a look at the other lights on the back of the house - another light's sensor has condensation in it, but the light still functions. Check the light to the side of the house which is on a different switch altogether and that has condensation it it to. Try to trigger it and it doesn't work. Switch it off and the internal switch and back on and it does the same as the defective light which started this thread - blinks on for a split second then blinks off and refuses to do anything else. Still no tripping of the RCD.

I have no idea how any moisture is getting into these units. They're all neatly sealed up with silicone around the fixing to the wall.

 

[Doggit]

If the lights at the front and the side work, but the ones at the rear don't then that suggests the units are okay, so you need to first check the bulbs at the front, and then compare them. You've got 3 lights at the front, but 4 at the rear, so it's possible that there's a feedback overload with the bulbs being over the max rating - or it has to be a difference in the way that the front and the rear have been wired up.

Try taking 2 or 3 bulbs out, and then see if the remaining units react properly. Are you using 100w bulbs, or have you replaced them with LED bulbs - these sometimes need a suppressor when you have too many on the same circuit.

Do you know how the lights have been wired up; is there 4 wires in the back of the light switch, or just one wire.

 

[ericmark]

I found to my cost that lights will suck in water. Yours is not as bad as mine as with mine the PIR is directly below the lamp, but still the problem is air expands and contracts with heat, it would seem Charles and Boyle are to blame their laws mean when the light goes on air has to escape, it is unlikely that silicon will stop it. And then the real problem when the light goes off, it sucks air back in, and with it any water sitting on any of the places where air transfers, it is near impossible to stop this air exchange. So the only real answer is to have some where that any water drawn in can exit again. With mine one small hole, and I really mean small 1/16 of an inch, at bottom of the PIR and it has worked ever since.

It is possible with the design of your lamp, that your efforts to make it water tight have really done the reverse, and transferred the venting from some point where it did no harm, to a point where it can suck in water.

There are other reasons for odd behaviour, as said the silly 'powerline' ethernet over the mains adaptors which really should be banned, problem is they don't have to be yours, a neighbour may have them, also things like flues from central heating, or in my case a neighbours lamp switching on and off. Or even some one like me, walking the dog and chatting on my transceiver though local repeater as I walk around.

I replaced my tube with a LED equivalent, as well as using less power, they also produce less heat, so less likely to draw in water.

 

[Lectrician]

Using silicon makes things worse. Any water or moist air that does get in......can't get out.

 

[VerticalTobe]

Once again thanks to everyone for the input. I'm only at the property on weekends at the moment, so trying the advice given has taken a while, but there's a bit of an update for those still interested.

Took the bottom fixing screws out of the lights with the apparent `condensation` in the PIR and a mini-waterfall happened (an estimate, but seemed like there was at least enough in each one to fill up the bottom section of the light, up to the base of the PIR sensor and possibly submerging it in collected water).

That quantity of water convenience me that something was amiss, so started looking at how it could have gotten into some of the lights. Spotted that there's a gap around the bottom of the PIR fixing (not sure if that's by design or not but it's there on each one of the 8 attached to the house).

Quick water test showed water pours through this gap so it looks like rainwater is able to seep under this gap and, with nowhere to exit from the base, gradually fills up until it gets to the levels I found. Once it does, sensor goes pop. This also seemed consistent with the lights failing on the parts of the house which are most exposed to rainfall.

Replaced some sensors to the broken units and everything seems to be working okay at the moment. As the lights are stuck fast with silicone I think I'll just leave the bottom fixing out to let any water drain away.

Got my fingers crossed this will sort it.

 

[Echo the husky]

How much silicone? These are designed to be quite open for good ventilation to keep everything dry.

 

[VerticalTobe]

All the electricians (so that's initial fitter, plus the two I called in to look at the problems) sealed them up all the way around the wall plate.

Forgot to say in my last post that the ones I've put back this weekend, I've also left the underside open as an extra precaution.

 

[JohnW2]

Forgot to say in my last post that the ones I've put back this weekend, I've also left the underside open as an extra precaution.

How 'open' are they? Slugs, spiders and various other creepy crawlies (whose bodies, like ours, are primarily water!) can cause as much trouble as water - but, unlike water, they do not necessarily 'drain out of drainage holes'

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

A small ( 2 mm ) drain hole at the bottom of the unit will allow water to escape.

Is the cable to the unit run in conduit from inside the house ? Conduit connecting a cold unit outside the building to the warm and humid air in the house will result in condensation in the unit of warm moist air drawn along the conduit