Planning permission. What would you do?

[Gregory01]

Ok so although early days in my extension I have hit my first hurdle - the planning department.

I have put my plans in for pre planning to help iron out any problems before formal planning. I am after a single story front extension and a double story side extension. The house sits on a corner plot on a road which has lots of different style and size houses.

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• Gregory01
• 15 Oct 2013
• 2

The plans were looked over by the planning department and the advisor originally asked for a few minor amendments but said if we made them it should be fine. On asking for the response in writing he needed to get it signed off by his manager who decided she didn't agree and thought the house was too big.

They have said they would rather see the side extension first floor stepped back slightly and also want a hipped roof. They feel the gable end if too overbearing and although there are lots of other similar size and style houses down the road apparently they are ok as they are not on a corner plot.

So if you're still reading (and thanks if you are) would you

A) go with their recommendation because its an easier ride even if you are not too keen on it.
B) try to see if you can negotiate further to see if you can get somewhere half reasonable (not sure if this is possible).
C) stick to your original plans or close to them and see if a planning consultant can help get the plans agreed.
D) other - suggestions welcome

Thanks and I look forward to your replies.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Do your proposals meet Local Policy Plan Guidance? Extensions are often stepped back slightly from the front elevation. Why is having hips a problem?

 

[tony1851]

The plans were looked over by the planning department and the advisor originally asked for a few minor amendments but said if we made them it should be fine. On asking for the response in writing he needed to get it signed off by his manager who decided she didn't agree and thought the house was too big.

Personally I'd just go with a hip, and also set the 1st floor back a little just to shut up the nit-picking little busybodies - though in the end only you can decide.

But your comment about one officer agreeing with your proposal, and his line manager disagreeing is a recurrent theme. It makes one wonder what the point of the consultation exercise is. What is the first officer being paid for, if he wastes your time and council time giving wrong advice? But I could go on........

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

But I could go on........

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

[cjard]

If you go for guidance, they recommend you do some things, and you ignore them come full application it does seem to put their backs up and sets things off on a negative footing.
Providing a reasoned argument in your design and access statement to counter their guidance might be an idea for points you really want. Reference the guidance you were given, agree on some of the points and demonstrate how you've made a change, argue with the other points by providing reasoning. I'd recommend to avoid the subjective "here's an artists impression of the entire street as a result of my changes, and in my opinion it looks perfectly harmonious" and present something more concrete "4 streets over from mine is a mixed street scene and two of the corner plots have clearly been extended with gables facing a road"

Think about design changes hitherto unconsidered - if they're right, and the gable fronting the street round the corner is too big and mass-of-render, maybe hip a bit of it and stick a window in or something that will make it look more housey. Or take the gable and stick it on the back (still the same loft space, but you moved your ridge 90 degrees) instead which may help it blend in with the street scene on the neighbouring street. Lucky you, you're on a corner plot - so it means you have 2 rows of houses to harmonise with

A couple of google street view pictures looking up and down the neighbouring streets would help (us) - an artists impression would likely help them no end. Always bear in mind though, that guidance is just that - it's an officer's opinion and not necessarily representative of anything. They can use it as a good opportunity to encourage you to go in a different direction with your development based on emotive reasons that have no basis in local policy. Essentially, this is the moment where they can tell you what they want, whether or not they could reasonably write a refusal reason that would withstand the scrutiny of an appeal inspector. It's thus a so-so political game that is being played. A planning consultant will know which choice phrases to pull out of the NPPF to remind councils that they have a duty to promote innovation not stifle it, and help to crete solutions rather than to hunt for and focus on problems. Consider whether there are aspects of your design that you can capitulate on now, and bring about by way of nonmaterial amendment later - you submit an app and pay another fee for the amend, but if it's refused and you appeal, youre appealing jsut that and not the entire applciation (i.e. don't hang a 50% extension and desperately needed family space on an argument about a hipped or gabled end wall). Bear ind mind too that to qualify as an amendment rather than a new plan, the amendment must have no further-reaching considerations than what it is in its own right. Installing double front doors in a 2 metre opening rather than a single door plus side panels in a 1.8m opening IS an amendment. Installing a wall of glass instead of render on the gable overlooking the neighbouring 3 properties is not an amendment because it has consequences (to the neighbours) that must be considered and reconsidered

 

[jeds]

Stepping back the first floor doesn't look as though it would do much harm to the space, so I'd probably go with that for an easy time. The hip roof sounds a bit mad though. Are they suggesting you change your existing gable end to a hip as well?

 

[Gregory01]

Guys, thanks for the replies so far - I really appreciate your input.

Freddymercurystwin - To be honest I don't know about the local policy plan guidance. I will ask the planning department to forward me a copy so I can read up. From my understanding they have not mentioned the stepping back to comply with any guidelines, just that they feel it would look better. The hips roof is only an issue for me because the roof has a very low pitch and I personally think they look a lot nicer as a gable end. I also wanted some red cedar cladding on it and that look wouldn't work on a hip roof as well as a gable end.

tony1851 - Thanks for your opinion, ive taken it on board. Part of me wants the easy option but then I wonder if I will regret the compromise every time I get home and look at the house. I completely agree with your second point, although the guy ive been dealing with at planning actually seems like a really nice bloke it is somewhat pointless to have people working in the planning department if their boss is the one who actually makes the decisions. its unfortunately a waste of everyone's time. Maybe they should pair the planning advisers up, that way every application gets 2 peoples opinion / input and it saves 1 person getting the final say.

cjard - really informative post - thanks. My opinion is as you pointed out that they may be using the opportunity to encourage what they may like rather than what they can reasonably argue if it went to appeal. The problem is that if this is the case it is likely to get their backs up if I go straight in for permission on what they have said they don't like. I guess I will have to tread carefully, compromise on the bits I agree with and reason on the bits I don't.

You mention about artists impressions and initially say you don't think it will help and then later on say it will. What is your opinion on this. Its something I thought of as if I could get a realistic drawing of the property as a street scene I would have thought it could help.

jeds - at the moment I don't know how far they want the first floor stepped back. If its just a matter of 30cm then it wouldnt really impact in terms of size. If they want 1m or more then it does mess up the bedroom size and we may have to consider a 3 bedroom rather than 4 bedroom house. (not ideal). I agree that the gable end suggestion is a bit "mad". Especially as there is a gable end at the other end of the property and indeed on the new extension the roof shape has a gable end in it. They haven't said I would need to change the other ends.

Anyway thanks again and any more input would be great. I will try and upload a few street view images.

 

[cjard]

You mention about artists impressions and initially say you don't think it will help and then later on say it will. What is your opinion on this. Its something I thought of as if I could get a realistic drawing of the property as a street scene I would have thought it could help.

I didn't mean to confer that it wouldn't help in the first statement - I was giving an example of an arguemnt that isn't particularly persuasive. Have an artists impression created by all means, but dont say "in response to your point about the gabled end being imposing, I've had this drawn and in my opinion it looks fine, so take your opinion and.."

This is an argument of opinions, and if they didn't like your gable before, drawing it in context may not be any more persuasive. Providing concrete examples of other examples in the locality where it's in place, allowed and looks good/not as harmful as they claim however..

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one but noone wants to hear it

 

[Gregory01]

thanks for clarifying cjard. It may help so I will look at getting an artists impression. I also have a meeting with a local planning consultant next monday for an initial consultation. Will see what they come up with. My dad used them after trying for 2 years to get planning on a loft conversion on a listed building. He has all but given up and the planning consultants got it agreed very quickly.

Anyway. here is a few images of the street to help put all this into context. I have put some captions with them to explain the view.

So firstly this is a picture of the house as it currently stands.

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

This is a picture looking up the road with the house on the right hand side.

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

This is also looking up the road but from a bit further down. The house is just behind the tree.

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

This is looking down the road. My house is the last one on the left just before the road junction (you can just see part of it)

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

As my house sits on a corner plot this is the house on the diagonally opposite corner

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

This is further up the road. There is a real mix of houses but pleanty which are of similar design / size to what I am proposing.

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

Lastly is another house on the road just showing an unusual design. it is a bit marmite, personally I like it. We are looking at using similar materials for ours (grey windows, light render and cedar cladding). The planning department seem fine with this.

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• Gregory01
• 19 Nov 2013
• 1

Hopefully that helps put our house / plans into context. What are your thoughts?

 

[cjard]

Thing is, being on a corner plot you also have to consider the street scene on the road that runs away from the rear of your house.. It has a short terrace of smaller houses before going to bigger semis. If you take a look at the roofs of those terraces, they're simple gabled style, stepped to provide some interest. If you extend your house as proposed then there will be this BIG extension sticking out of the side of your hose and up to their building line with a gable end on it. From across the road, looking at your gable, it looks incongruous with the others. At the moment it's accepted because it's set back from their building line and is less imposing. Perhaps consider changing the design of your roof on this end so your house has a gable end front and back, and standing across the road (south of your house, looking north) reveals a roof that slopes towards the viewer, just like those stepped terraces do. This will make it less imposing, more in keeping with their style and conceptually your house is the same volume because you merely moved a roof point 90 degrees round...



If they still moan, you could take the brown bit of your extension as a whole and step it right a few brick lengths, leaving the back of the extension where it is.. this would visually sympathise with the stepping present in that row of houses, break the face of your south elevation and make things seem less large

 

[Gregory01]

Thanks cjard - your ideas are great. We had originally actually had the roof as you suggest however changed it. I hadnt thought about the roofs of the other houses and keeping it inline with theirs.

Is this the roof style you are thinking of?

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• Gregory01
• 20 Nov 2013
• 1

With regards to your second comment I am trying to get my head around what you are suggesting. Do you think I should make the house a tad wider and then on the south side step it back slightly?

Thanks
Greg

 

[cjard]

If you see the South elevation in my pic. . Your roof above the rear extension is hipped mine is gabled. . If the house were cake, cut along red line in South elevation and push the smaller part away from you, you stagger the roof planes without a loss of space.. just a bit more of a staggered roof plane

 

[m4ss]

I am new on this website and I am at the mo trying to write a message on this board.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well you have succeeded.