Please help! Joists not long enough to rest on wall plate

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Morning all.

I have dropped a real clanger here that could prove to be quite a costly mistake.

In my loft I have already installed new 200x47mm joists to take a new floor (just for storage). These joists run parallel and in between the original ceiling joists. They rest on the wall plate at each end of the house, bolted to the rafters, and also on a load bearing wall in the middle. This was all fine for one side of the house, however the other side there is no load bearing wall for joists to rest on, so it would be a span of 8m. Plus the loft hatch and binders would be in the way.

So my idea was to fit new smaller joists, 125mm x 47mm C24, perpendicular to those that I have already installed, a span of 2.15m, passing over the top of the original ceiling joists, hung off joist hangers one end and resting on a packer that would rest the wall plate the other end, and bolted to the rafter again. (Please see picture attached).

Now when taking measurements, I failed to account for the angle of the rafter, so effectively the higher up the beam is, the shorter it is, I now have the problem that when the beams are level with the top of the already installed joists that they will be hanging off, they are not long enough to rest on the wall plate.

If I buy 150mm joists and shave about 10mm off the depth making them 140mm they will be level with the joist they will be hanging off, they will be small enough to pass over the ceiling joists, and there will be enough to rest on the wall plate. However, I have just paid more than double what id usually pay for the 125mm joists due to lock down, and id have to pay double again to get the 150mm joists. All this and I have just been furloughed from work. Is there a way I can make the 125mm joists work? Does some sort of bracket exist or something? Or do I have to bite the bullet and buy the bigger joist?

Many Thanks
 

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You may well need to double up the new joist that the 125mm x 47mm joists are bearing on, otherwise it's a lot of extra load for that single joist alone*, so that would get you 50mm back. Is that enough?

*Given that most of the 125mm deep joists are under restricted ceiling height you may be able to argue a smaller loading than usual.
 
Your new, large section, joists should not touch the ceiling.

Why not get a joiner in for a heads up at least?
From what i can make out above you might have got in a little over your head?
Nothing dramatic will happen - but it will help you to have a joiner visit the site.
 
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Am I right that the floor joists don't run in the same direction as the rafters and the rafters don't sit on the wall plate :?::!:
 
Hi guys, to get back to you one by one...

how much short are your 125mm timbers

Its not that they are too short per se, it hard to explain, the higher i raise them naturally the shorter they become because of the angle of the roof, the very tips of the joist (where i have cut them to match the angle of the roof) are literally just touching the wall plate, so a wall plates width too short, its because i have had to raise them to make them level with the 200mm beams that they dont become long enough to rest on the wall plate.

You may well need to double up the new joist that the 125mm x 47mm joists are bearing on, otherwise it's a lot of extra load for that single joist alone*, so that would get you 50mm back. Is that enough?

*Given that most of the 125mm deep joists are under restricted ceiling height you may be able to argue a smaller loading than usual.

Most of the joists running perpendicular will rest on a load bearing wall that runs parrallell so the 200mm beam, and there is only about 10cm between them, so the 200mm beam wont be taking the load. I didnt include it in the drawing for simplicity sake. I have the length on the beams, they are all 2.4m long uncut and the span is only 2.15m, the problem is as i raise them to make them level with the 200m beam, the angle of the roof makes the 125mm shorter so it doesnt rest over the wall plate.

I did figure the loading will be less, but as it stands the only way to secure the 125mm joists at the rafter end will be to bolt it and have the rafter take all the load. I didnt feel happy about this.

Your new, large section, joists should not touch the ceiling.

Why not get a joiner in for a heads up at least?
From what i can make out above you might have got in a little over your head?
Nothing dramatic will happen - but it will help you to have a joiner visit the site.

They dont touch the ceiling, they are resting on 18mm ply packers, it was just easier to simplify the drawing as I tried to only include details relating to the problem at hand. I can do the work no problem, all spans have been calculated for load etc, all current joits are fitted perfectly no problem, i just had a slight oversight relating to the angle of the roof and the height of the joist. I can fix it no problem with deeper joists, im just trying to dig myself out of a hole by using the current 125mm ones, otherwise ive got to spend £300 on new ones. I thought some people may know a way i havent thought of.

Am I right that the floor joists don't run in the same direction as the rafters and the rafters don't sit on the wall plate

Sorry bad drawing, the rafters do sit on the wall plate. Its a 3 sided roof. All the ceiling and 200m joists already installed run front to back of the house in the same direction as the rafters, and are bolted to the rafters front to back. The pitch that goes from side to side will also have the new joists I am trying to fit running in the same direction as the rafters. so they are perpendicular to the joists running front to back.

Thanks
 
can you fix a 125 mm to the installed 200mm and hang off that. that will give you an extra 50mm ? i think.
 
Can we assume you have no planning consent or building regs approval , as this is just for storage and access? you shouldn’t be doing anything that alters or compromises the original integrity or characteristics of your roof. you don’t need to be bolting the new joists to the rafters.
 
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Im struggling to get the point across of what the problem is and what im trying to achieve. I think ill just go with the deeper joists.
 
Just coach-screw the 125 joists to the sides of the rafters. You are down at the eaves and as Garyo has advised, your live loading at that low point will be negligible.
It won't impact on the rafters to any significant extent because you are very near their point of support on the wall plate.
 
Presume you will have to splay cut the tops of the ends of the joists to fit below the roof but a correct drawing showing the proposal would help.
 

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