Plumbing issues - shower pressure low and other issues

[bunters1976]

Hi.

We have replaced one big bathroom with 2 smaller ones upon buying a new house.

We have a gravity fed system. To feed the 2 new showers we purchased a 1.6 bar shower pump.There are only 2 of us at the moment so we will only ever use one of the showers at a time, so in effect the pump will power a single shower and not both at the same time. This was plumbed in by a local plumber. Since being installed, I am disappointed with the pressure. I was expecting a power shower but it provides what feels like an unpressurised flow of water. This is faster than without a pump, but not what I would expect of a power shower.

The plumber denies any responsibility blaming the showers and the pump. I have tried 3 different showers, replaced the pump and now purchased another 2 bar pump. The pressure is still poor regardless of these changes. This makes me believe it could be the pipe work.

The water goes to the pump via 22mm pipes. The water leaves the pump at 22mm which is quickly reduced to 15mm pipe before going under the floorboards to the showers. The hot is connected via a flange.

Does anyone have any ideas why the pressure could be poor and what I can do? The plumber has been paid £1000 but wants another £750. I feel reluctant to pay the final payment as I am not confident the plumbing has been done correctly (please see below). Does anyone have an ideas how this can be resolved?

To explain the wider issues that I am not satisfied with by the plumber, the newly plumbed in toilet fills very slowly (noticeably slower than another toilet in a similar location), the flange leaked and upon calling a different plumber he stated it had not been tightened properly leaving stains in my kitchen ceiling and the pipes have been bent about 6 inches feeding a towel rail as they come out of a tiled floor at the wrong place. The plumber denies any responsibility for these issues.

If anyone has any ideas or advice I would be grateful.

Many thanks

 

[DaleRCL]

What made you go for a 1.6 bar pump?
What pressure and pipework size does the shower you've fitted require?
Did you discuss with the plumber what pressure and flow rate you wanted to achieve?

 

[Plumber90]

1.6 isn't man enough for 2 showers, I've recently fitted a 3bar pump for 2 showers. Don't pay the bloke anymore either.

 

[DaleRCL]

Why not pay the bloke any more?

 

[bunters1976]

Hi

Thanks for the replies.

To clarify, we only ever use one shower at a time, hence the 1.6 bar pump. I assume this should be adequate to give us a "power shower" on one shower.

As discussed we tried 3 separate showers. One requires a minimum of 1.5 bar pressure and another 0.5 bar. The pressure is disappointing on all of them.

The plumber states the pipe work if all correct, however its not the shower and not the shower pump so what else can it be? I have done some reading which states the pipe work should be 22mm unil entering the shower when it can be reduced to 15mm. Is this correct and would it make much difference.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

 

[HERTS P&D]

Same as plumber90, I fitted a 3 bar stuart turner pump to pump 2 showers. The householder called me afterwards to tell me that they liked the pressure, as someone else told them to go for a 2 bar pump.

Andy

 

[DaleRCL]

1.6 bar really is not a lot of pressure. Really you need to do 3 things to achieve a 'power shower'

1. Upgrade all pipework from pump to 22mm
2. Fit a shower valve with 22mm connections
3. Fit at least a 3 bar pump, if not 4 bar

I don't know if you can hold your plumber responsible for this. Unless you specifically paid him to calculate flow rates, pressure and pipe sizes then he hasn't really done anything wrong. You just happen to not be happy with the final performance.

With regards to witholding some money to rectify leak and damage caused. Did you give him an opportunity to repair leak himself ? Really, he should be given that chance and an option to claim on his insurance for any damage.

 

[bunters1976]

Thanks again for the further replies. I appreciate your response. I was expecting more pressure but can appreciate what you are saying and even though it is not the response I was hoping for, I am reassured by an independent balanced view.

No I did not ask him to work anything out. Maybe 22mm pipe should have been used, but I can appreciate it may not have made a massive difference.

Regarding the leak, no I did not give him chance to fix it, however this was based on his reaction to other issues where he doesn't give a straight answer, just finds excuses and blames everyone but himself. When one excuse or some blame is disprovedm he just finds another. This is part of the issue as I am not confident in what he tells me hence requesting independent views.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

 

[bunters1976]

Attempting to get something tangible, I have measured the flow rate using my stop watch and a 14 litre bucket.

The 2 bar pumps pushes out 6.08 litres per minute.

The instructions for the shower state it should give 8 litres per minute at 0.5 bar.

I am now thinking that the pressure is again lower than it should be. Am I missing something?

 

[DaleRCL]

Flow rate can't be determined by pressure only. There are other factors to consider, most importantly pipe size, number of fittings used, restrictive valves and filters.

The shower valve will be giving you its capabilities operating at maximum potential.

 

[Agile]

Do you really understand pressure and flow and the relationship between them?

It appears that YOU specified the pump and the shower and now don't want to pay the plumber who fitted them for you!

He was only doing what you has asked.

In fact to work for you he must be a very tolerant guy or very short of work!

 

[bunters1976]

Thats pretty much what I was asking... I have supplied 3 different pumps and 3 different showers and the pressure is still poor.

Flow rate can't be determined by pressure only. There are other factors to consider, most importantly pipe size, number of fittings used, restrictive valves and filters.

The shower valve will be giving you its capabilities operating at maximum potential.

If the new pipe work he installed (pipe size, valves, fittings used, restrive valves) is causing the low pressure then in some way I feel he is responsible for that as the person who did all that. If its the shower or pump I supplied then thats down to me. Thats pretty much what I am trying to gauge and what can be done to increase the pressure.

 

[DaleRCL]

You need to figure out exactly what it is you want to achieve. You obviously thought at one point that 1.6 bar was enough. It wasn't.

Once you figure out what sort of performance you want, you will then need to calculate the pressure and flow rates required to provide this.

Once you know this, you will need to calculate position of pump in proximity to valve, pipe size, routing of pipework, spec a pump and spec a shower valve.

This does seem a lot of work doesn't it? The point I'm trying to make is that if you haven't done all this despite your specific requirements, why would you expect your plumber to have done it all for free?

 

[bunters1976]

Hmmm, I think my post has some how become off track.

I am a reasonable person. I am not looking to get out of paying for satisfactory work and I would not expect him to make complex equations based on the pressure of shower I require.

I have had several friends look at the shower all of who said they expected it to be more. One has a caravan and compares it to their shower in that. I am pretty sure if most diynot members could see it they would see what I mean.

As before he installed the new pipe work (at my expense). I had paid him over £1000 already for pipe work to 2 bathrooms but owe him more. He blamed the shower (hence trying 3 different ones) and the pump (hence returning it and now purchasing another 2 bar pump) and the pressure is still very poor. I assume if the pressure was acceptable he would not be blaming the shower and pump but tell me the pressure is what I could expect from the pump so in fairness he is indirectly agreeing with me the power is poor.

I have read other threads on here of being moaning about having 12 litre per minute shower flow rare. Mine is about 6 lpm with a 2 bar pump. To me this doesn't wound right.

As already mentioned this is the latest of numerous issues including him repeatedly not turning up when he said, leaving a loose flange leaking through my ceiling, towel rail pipes coming out the floor in the wrong place leaving unsightly bends in the pipe, very slow filling toilet, a leaking radiator valve, leaving fist size chunks of loft insulation in my cold water tank, breaking my loft ladder, using the floor boards he has taken up to mount the shower pump leaving me with a gap in the floor, demanding me pay him £350 cash for materials but he has inexplicably thrown all the receipts away so cant prove any of his costs and chopping the plug off my stereo and stealing the fuse out of my angle grinder to install the pump without mentioning it.

My question is could his pipe work (using 15mm pipe instead of 22mm pipe, using incorrect fittings etc) cause this poor pressure. If so, as the plumber who installed the incorrect pipes/ fittings is he responsible for this and if so what could I reasonably do about it.

I dont think that is an unreasonable question.

 

[DaleRCL]

Are you just going to keep asking the same questions over and over until you get the answer you want?

Not everything is completely black and white. You have been given plenty of advice and info and now need to make your own judgement based on your findings.

I bet you're one of these guys who never got The Sopranos ending either.