Possibly put a Shaver unit for toothbrush in Bathroom.

[omits]

Currently I have no ring main electrics in the bathroom. It is too small for "Outside area" for electrics (i.e. only has zone 2). I have a ring main (30mA RCD fused) socket just outside the bathroom where I could get a spur fitted to go through the wall into zone 2 and take a channel up the wall to a new shaver unit. Is this permitted given that the bathroom floor space is only 1.8m square next to the bath?

 

[ericmark]

701.512.3 Erection of switchgear, controlgear and accessories according to external influences
The following requirements do not apply to switches and controls which are incorporated in fixed current-using equipment suitable for use in that zone or to insulating pull cords of cord operated switches.
In zone 0:
switchgear or accessories shall not be installed.
In zone 1:
only switches of SELV circuits supplied at a nominal voltage not exceeding 12 V a.c. rms or 30 V ripple-free d.c. shall be installed. the safety source being installed outside zones 0. 1 and 2.
In zone 2:
switchgear. accessories incorporating switches or socket-outlets shall not be installed with the exception of:
(i) switches and socket-outlets of SELV circuits, the safety source being installed outside zones 0. 1 and 2. and
(ii) shaver supply units complying with BS EN 61558-2-5.
Except for SELV socket-outlets complying with Section 414 and shaver supply units complying with BS EN 61558-2-5, socket-outlets are prohibited within a distance of 3 m horizontally from the boundary of zone 1.

So reading that yes you can fit a shaver socket.

 

[mfarrow]

If you're finitting a shaver socket from a ring main, I believe you will have to take the cable to a Fused Connection Unit (fused spur) first on the landing side of the wall.

Also ensure the landing socket is not a spur from the main ring in it's own right; you can't have spurs off spurs without fusing down.

Otherwise, you can take a feed from the lighting circuit running in the loft. That might be easier.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Check that the shaver unit is OK to be used for the load of the charger for the length of time it would be on.

 

[JohnW2]

...Also ensure the landing socket is not a spur from the main ring in it's own right; you can't have spurs off spurs without fusing down.

I know what you mean, but I suspect some others may not find it so obvious. I presume what you meant is that you cannot have a spur off a spur unless the first spur is 'fused down' (usually with a 13A FCU -i.e. a 'fused spur').

What you say is obviously true in terms of the regs, which is what we have to talk about here. However, in the case of a 3A (or even 1A) FCU for a fixed-wired shaver socket .... !!

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

What you say is obviously true in terms of the regs, which is what we have to talk about here. However, in the case of a 3A (or even 1A) FCU for a fixed-wired shaver socket .... !!

John, are you trying to say that the socket may require fusing down anyway? I'm sure that may be the case if the manufacturers instructions stipulate it.

 

[JohnW2]

What you say is obviously true in terms of the regs, which is what we have to talk about here. However, in the case of a 3A (or even 1A) FCU for a fixed-wired shaver socket .... !!

John, are you trying to say that the socket may require fusing down anyway? I'm sure that may be the case if the manufacturers instructions stipulate it.

Possibly, but that was not my real point. What I was trying ('not' ) to say was that, although the regs suggest (it's really only the 'informative' Appendix 15 which says this) that one should not 'take a spur from an unfused spur' (i.e. have an unfused spur supplying more than just one single/double socket), if the secondary 'spur' from the socket was feeding, say, a fixed-wired shaver socket (via a 1A or 3A FCU if one wanted), I personally would probably not lose any sleep over that 'non-compliance' (with an 'informative' Appendix)! However, I probably should not say that!

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

No, you probably shouldn't , nor should you have two non-compliances against the good-ol' British ring main created by the same action:

- Spur off a spur (without fusing down)
- Accessory not meeting BS 1363 (without first fusing down).

 

[riveralt]

that was not my real point. What I was trying ('not' ) to say was that, although the regs suggest (it's really only the 'informative' Appendix 15 which says this) that one should not 'take a spur from an unfused spur' (i.e. have an unfused spur supplying more than just one single/double socket), if the secondary 'spur' from the socket was feeding, say, a fixed-wired shaver socket (via a 1A or 3A FCU if one wanted), I personally would probably not lose any sleep over that 'non-compliance' (with an 'informative' Appendix)! However, I probably should not say that!

Personally, I would not bother hedging my bets on that one - common sense rules apply here - rather than robotic compliance.

 

[JohnW2]

No, you probably shouldn't , nor should you have two non-compliances against the good-ol' British ring main created by the same action:
- Spur off a spur (without fusing down)

That wording again I again presume you mean "without the first spur being fused down"? However, as I said, AFAIAA a "spur off an unfused spur" is not non-compliant with any specific regulation - merely the 'guidance' in Appendix 15.

- Accessory not meeting BS 1363 (without first fusing down).

Agreed - as I said, one could feed it via a 1A or 3A FCU - but (I'm going to say it again!) I still wouldn't lose sleep if that FCU was fed from an 'unfused spur'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

that was not my real point. What I was trying ('not' ) to say was that, although the regs suggest (it's really only the 'informative' Appendix 15 which says this) that one should not 'take a spur from an unfused spur' (i.e. have an unfused spur supplying more than just one single/double socket), if the secondary 'spur' from the socket was feeding, say, a fixed-wired shaver socket (via a 1A or 3A FCU if one wanted), I personally would probably not lose any sleep over that 'non-compliance' (with an 'informative' Appendix)! However, I probably should not say that!

Personally, I would not bother hedging my bets on that one - common sense rules apply here - rather than robotic compliance.

I think you're agreeing with me? To be clear, I would not consider it appropriate to suggest/advise that anyone else should do things which were non-compliant with the regs (or even with an 'informative' Appendix to the regs) but, personally, I would happily apply common sense and feed a very small fixed-wired load from an 'unfused spur'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

That wording again I again presume you mean "without the first spur being fused down"? However, as I said, AFAIAA a "spur off an unfused spur" is not non-compliant with any specific regulation - merely the 'guidance' in Appendix 15.

Yes I think we're both talking about the same thing, one accessory only off an unfused spur.

As for it being a regulation, I think you are right, it is not explicitly forbidden. One must therefore look towards NICEIC etc for guidance.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes I think we're both talking about the same thing, one accessory only off an unfused spur. As for it being a regulation, I think you are right, it is not explicitly forbidden. One must therefore look towards NICEIC etc for guidance.

... or rely on one's own knowledge, skill, judgement, experience and common sense. Members of orgnisations like NICEIC may be constrained to follow the organisation's guidance, but I don't think that we should regard them as providers of quasi-regulations which everyone should comply with.

Given the uncertainties about what might be plugged in to a (perfectly compliant) double socket on an 'unfused spur', I would happily defend in front of anyone my judgement that safety would not be compromised by adding a fixed-wired load of probably 0.2A max (the usual internal 'fusing' of a shaver socket). However, I agree with you that if one wanted compliance with explicit regulations, one would probably have to be 'robotic' and have a BS1363 FCU in the feed, even though it probably isn't electrically required (given the internal protection within shaver sockets). Would I do that? Don't ask!

Kind Regards, John

 

[omits]

If I take the feed from the loft lighting, do I need to fuse it down with say a spur box (@5A) at ceiling level?

MK do a shaver outlet which can take the toothbrush charger. My local electric supplier phoned them up. Apparently they are the only ones making these.

 

[JohnW2]

If I take the feed from the loft lighting, do I need to fuse it down with say a spur box (@5A) at ceiling level?

Only (and even then, only if you want to be ultra-compliant with the regulations) if the manufacturer of the shaver socket says that you have to. There will presumably already be a 6A MCB protecting the whole of the lighting circuit (and there'll probably be a 0.2A 'fuse' in the shaver socket), so adding a further fuse won't really achieve anything.

Kind Regards, John