Problems with new heating installation

[dwaviation]

I would be grateful for your thoughts on my problem

I recently had a plumbing company install a brand new installation in my bungalow renovation. The front man was an amiable chap and he gave me a good price but the two young lads who turned up to do the work...

To cut a long story short I had an S plan fitted with a conventional WB boiler, tank in the roof and a copper cylinder downstairs. After the installation I noticed that the rads were heating up undemanded when the HW was on. Research on this forum highlighted the problem; the HW return wasn't the last return in the line to the boiler and so I was getting reverse flow. The young lad who turned up to fix it decided not to rework the pipes but fit a Non return Valve on the Rad return line.. (this turned into a two day disaster but we got there in the end)

All seemed well until I noticed that now when the HW came on the Rads went off... I am guessing that there is a head of pressure on one side of the NRV from the HW return that the Radiator return pressure cannot overcome?

The plumbers are coming back at the end of the month and I would be grateful for any advice in the meantime.

** Having browsed some more I realise that I do not have a balancing valve fitted or indeed a bypass valve, at least not that I can see - Is this a vital piece of kit? **

 

[dcawkwell]

I would be grateful for your thoughts on my problem

I recently had a plumbing company install a brand new installation in my bungalow renovation. The front man was an amiable chap and he gave me a good price but the two young lads who turned up to do the work...

To cut a long story short I had an S plan fitted with a conventional WB boiler, tank in the roof and a copper cylinder downstairs. After the installation I noticed that the rads were heating up undemanded when the HW was on. Research on this forum highlighted the problem; the HW return wasn't the last return in the line to the boiler and so I was getting reverse flow. The young lad who turned up to fix it decided not to rework the pipes but fit a Non return Valve on the Rad return line.. (this turned into a two day disaster but we got there in the end)

All seemed well until I noticed that now when the HW came on the Rads went off... I am guessing that there is a head of pressure on one side of the NRV from the HW return that the Radiator return pressure cannot overcome?

The plumbers are coming back at the end of the month and I would be grateful for any advice in the meantime.

** Having browsed some more I realise that I do not have a balancing valve fitted or indeed a bypass valve, at least not that I can see - Is this a vital piece of kit? **

The non return valve takes an amount of pressure from the pump to open it. If you have an oldish tank with a big coil the pump will find it much easier to pump around the cylinder coil and the non return valve to the radiators won't be opening. I don't know the piping layout but I would
say the correct way would be to adjust the piping. A balancing valve on
the hot water tank will also help to restrict the flow through the cylinder so it balances with the central heating when both are on.
This isn't so noticeable on modern cylinders that heat up in minutes but old ones that take an hour to heat would be a problem.

 

[doitall]

The end of the month is unacceptable.

Tell them you want it re-piping properly, like now.

The purpose of an S or Y plan is to give you full control over the heating or hot water.

A non-return valve is a bodge to get over their bad install and will give you future problems.

 

[ChrisR]

Echo that.
What's the betting they used the wrong sort of non-return valve too..

one like this

(Or even worse, like that but with screw head sticking out of the middle)
would give you a lot of resistance. Sign of layered incompetence!

whereas one like this

Is just a normal botch.

Either is likely to be a source of trouble in the future, they shouldn't be there.

Similarly, your bypass should be an "Automatic" one which open at a set pressure, NOT a simple gate valve.

I wouldn't accept the same oiks back, If they didn't test it, which it sounds like they didn't, then they're incompetent to do anything.
Ask for someone who knows what he's doing.

Any inhibitor in there by any chance - assuming they flushed it out first
.... oh dear. Benchmark filled in inthe Installation Manual?

 

[Agile]

Sounds like you took the lowest quote for the work.

The guy has kept prices down by employing young guys to do the work.

Thats why anyone should always ask who will actually be doing the work.

Sometimes even gas work is done by unregistereds and just signed off by the proprietor.

 

[doitall]

They don't call the second one a "Clacker" for nothing Chris

 

[slapper]

They don't call the second one a "Clacker" for nothing Chris

Long time since I heard that word, youll soon be talking about Reflux valves

 

[slapper]

Also thats why the Japenese dont impersonate Frank Carson!!!..."Thats a Clacker"

 

[dwaviation]

Here's the full story... I dealt with the old chap and accepted his quote - A few weeks later these two young(ish) lads turn up to do the work. One started with the chrome pipe drops to the already hung (new) radiators whilst the other started on the other runs and boiler installation. This was a four day job...

After day one the lad on the chrome piping was getting nowhere, he was tring to fit these silly chrome clips into the wall in order to take the pipes but all he had managed to do was effectively swiss cheese my new plaster I gave him a bag of those double white plastic clips, clipped the pipework into them so they where parallel and easier to work with and sent him off to the other side of the room to start again while I repaired my wall... Every time he drilled into the ceiling he managed to half hit a joist which deflected his drill and now I have a few 'springy' pipes that won't sit on the wall (they want to bow out)

The other chap was making a lot of noise with his uber drill as went through the wall for the boiler flue - How we laughed when we realised he had exited with the top of the hole one inch above the soffit line and had to start again a bit lower - No mess there then

Throughout the whole job the mobile phone rings were constant from 'HQ' with my boiler man disappearing on more than one occasion to yet another emergency elsewhere. My four day job went to five, and then went over the weekend and onwards to Wednesday and even then it was rush to finish. 9 days in total!

Meanwhile the original pipe man had got his pipe bender out and was trying his best to turn my expensive chrome pipe back into copper as he bent weird and wondeful shapes in it - Personally I like chrome right angle fittings but he looked horrified at the thought.

Back to boiler man now - Brand new boiler fitted on wall absolutely covered in red brick dust and pipes going everywhere. At this point it was difficult for me to keep tabs on what was going on.

Anyway the job was finished by a very pi**ed of young man by close of play Wednesday - He wacked three bar into the system by midday and it was still there at 4 so that was good enough. He turned the boiler on and left... I got him back on Friday when he was reminded about the Inhibitor (or lack of) The system never got flushed.. and the NRV was bodged in which now makes the CH valve groan when in operation.

I also have a noise in the CH system pipes which sound like bubbles (or small debris) which stops when the HW is on. It's quite loud at night and I need to address that too.

There is no benchmark in the installation manual... In fact there is nothing at all entered on the back page other than a load of sometime wet red brick dust...

Enjoy

 

[doitall]

Can only say I hope you haven't paid them.

Get on to the old man and start ww3.

Got any Pics, it sounds horrendous.

 

[joe-90]

It's a great read if nothing else.

Love the bit about the chrome pipes.

 

[McCombi]

No benchmark = no warranty. Although by the sounds of things the manufacturer would probably find a way out of a warranty claim anyway due to installation issues.

 

[Nige F]

I would be grateful for your thoughts on my problem

I recently had a plumbing company install a brand new installation in my bungalow renovation. The front man was an amiable chap

I`m a miserable old git and not good at people skills - But I got enough work from my installs - results spoke louder than BS words

 

[slapper]

April 1st has come early

 

[dwaviation]

Well here's part 2

Chrome pipe man was also running the pipes in the loft and I had asked for some full bore stop cocks to be fitted as well in case I needed to drop a rad for decorating etc. Now some of the runs were a complete bitch as the pipes popped up right in the corner of the loft, how he got the compression fittings on the end of the chrome I'll never know but just to impress me even further he fitted the stop cocks there as well....

I was very specific about where I wanted the loft tank as my loft is boarded about 3m square around the loft hatch and I wanted the tank away from the boarding so I could walk around as required - Just as well I decided to have a quick look to see how it was going because I bumped my head on the tank as I climbed the ladder - It was slung right across the top of the hatch.

You might remember that boiler man had to come back a few days later because the CH came on undemanded with the HW - I was persuaded that an NRV would sort out the problem. Chap went into the loft, came down 20 minutes later switched on the HW and said he'd be back soon, and shot off (HQ had been on to him again) as he went round the corner, I kid you not, the back door on his van opened and fell off... Did I mention that he had fitted the NRV to the flow and not the return - and that it leaked all over my new plaster ceiling...

So there we have it - a right clusterfu** from start to finish. And they're coming back

I don't get annoyed very easily and I much prefer to remain on speaking terms with people and I am sure we'll get it sorted but blimey - They're taking the p*ss

So to summarise:

I need the system drained and flushed
Removal of the NRV
Re-plumbed correctly
A balancing valve fitted
A bypass fitted
Benchmarked and signed off correctly

Not to much to ask...