Query re Part P Inspection

[nordberg73]

I've just had a small extension built on my house. As part of the build, there's been new lights/sockets/switches etc added to my existing board.

When the builder quoted for the job, he specified that all electrical work would be completed to a Part P standard. I assumed, wrongly, that this meant a Part P certified sparky would be doing t he work. As it transpired, the builder did it all himself. He has since brought in an electrician to check over the work and certify it and given me the bill for this service.

I have a couple of queries about this. Firstly, when he quoted me and specified the electrics would be to a Part P standard, was I unreasonable in expecting this meant the inspection/certificate would be part of the work and not a separate invoice?

Secondly, when this inspection takes place, is it a case of inspecting just the new work, or is the rest of the house inspected also? How long, roughly, would an inspection last for a 4 bed 2 reception home with a 12 way board?

Thanks very much!

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have a couple of queries about this. Firstly, when he quoted me and specified the electrics would be to a Part P standard, was I unreasonable in expecting this meant the inspection/certificate would be part of the work and not a separate invoice?

The term is meaningless but I would consider your expectations correct.

That aside, it does not matter what he said. You should have the relevant certificates and completion/compliance certificate.
Is the extension under the control of the Building Inspector and are the electrics included in this?

Secondly, when this inspection takes place, is it a case of inspecting just the new work, or is the rest of the house inspected also? How long, roughly, would an inspection last for a 4 bed 2 reception home with a 12 way board?

Just the new work.

 

[nordberg73]

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, fully under control of Building Inspector etc. It's all been done properly in that respect.

I've yet to see the certificate. Will it be specific about what was tested?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes. It wil depend a bit on what was done. If NEW circuits were installed, then you should receive an Electrical Installation Certificate that will give detail on each new circuit.
If he/she just extended existing circuits, you should get a Minor Works Certificate for each circuit that was extended. If you Google the terms, you will see examples.

PS The certificates should be done as part of the job, not an optional extra. Testing is an essential part of the work. The certificates basically say that the work has been designed, installed and tested in compliance with BS7671 (the Wiring Regulations).

Building Regulations Part P basically says that electrical work must be done in a safe manner.
You can read it, in all of its glory, in the WIKI
//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electricsart_p:Statutory-Instrument

 

[Spark123]

How much extra did it / does it cost?

 

[nordberg73]

Thanks both.

Basically, 5 years ago we had the house fully rewired by a registered electrician. Unfortunately, after that work was carried out, a whole series of events unfolded (not related to the work/elecrtician) that resulted in the certificate never been issued. Five years later and with this in mind, I mentioned to my builder that when his work was inspected, I'd be interested in getting the whole house inspected/certified. I didn't know he'd evidently gone ahead and done this until he emailed me an invoice for over £200. I foolishly replied saying I would arrange payment before thinking it through. Seems to me, this electrician needed to attend site in any case and inpsect the new work so if he did also inspect the existing electrics, I shouldn't have to pick up all the costs as some of that should've been included in the builder's fee. Secondly, I can tell from my house alarm logs that they were both on site for 1.5 hours during which time, they also had some wiring bits and pieces to finish off. Doesn't seem long enough to have performed a test on a 3 storey 4 bed house?

I suppose I just want to be sure I'm being taken for a ride here. The builder's standard has been excellent throughout, but he's not been particularly transparent with his costs. There's been a few relatively costly extras which should've been included with the costs. Eg, the boiler was always going to be moved from one end of the house to other, but the gas engineer was an extra cost. Things like that....

Thanks once again for your advice.

 

[Spark123]

Unfortunately unless you have a full breakdown of all the work beforehand and an agreed cost you'll have to pay for additional work, £200 doesn't sound that bad to me, there is paperwork off site involved too. How many sparks attended? The electrician should only do an EICR (electrical installation condition report) for the existing installation and either minor works or installation cert for the new.
What paperwork have you received from the electrician?

 

[chivers67]

Secondly, when this inspection takes place, is it a case of inspecting just the new work, or is the rest of the house inspected also? How long, roughly, would an inspection last for a 4 bed 2 reception home with a 12 way board?

Thanks very much!

I'd expect the original part of your installation with regards to earthing arrangements to be checked too along with new work.

Testing the whole property 3 to 5 days? It's hard to say as it depends on the results of the testing and visual inspection. If the board looked like a bowl of spaghetti with the cover off i'd be inclined to delve deeper

 

[seasickstevie]

3 to 5 days sounds a bit extreme!
Unless alarm bells are ringing (metaphorically speaking) there's usually only need to remove ten percent of the accessories.

 

[Iggifer]

3-5 days is waaaay over the top for a standard EICR. An hour and a half is on the other end of the scale though.

If there's two of you, and you work together a lot/have a good working relationship, it will take much less time than if you try and do it on your own.

 

[nordberg73]

Hi,
I've now received the report and it's an EICR for all the circuits in the house. There's no mention of the new work on it, just existing. Is this sufficient for the building regs requirements?

I'm still a bit perplexed... I get the feeling the builder should've paid for the inspection of the new work, but instead, he's got the sparky to do a full EICR and pass the full cost to me....

 

[JohnW2]

I've now received the report and it's an EICR for all the circuits in the house. There's no mention of the new work on it, just existing. Is this sufficient for the building regs requirements? .... I'm still a bit perplexed... I get the feeling the builder should've paid for the inspection of the new work, but instead, he's got the sparky to do a full EICR and pass the full cost to me....

If a 'third party' electrician (who did not undertake the recent work) was asked to come and undertake an EICR, then I would expect him/her to have inspected the entire installation as it currently is - including any recent work/changes. It sounds as if there may have ben a misunderstanding on the part of your builder. You said:

... I mentioned to my builder that when his work was inspected, I'd be interested in getting the whole house inspected/certified. I didn't know he'd evidently gone ahead and done this until he emailed me an invoice for over £200.

It sounds as if the builder interpreted your 'expression of interest' as an instruction to arrange for the entire electrical installation to be inspected - so that's what he arranged.

However, none of this alters the fact that whoever undertook the recent work (seemingly the builder) should have issued an EIC or MWC, even if they were not an electrician. A 'third party' electrician cannot issue certificates for work that they have not undertaken.

Kind Regards, John

 

[nordberg73]

It sounds as if the builder interpreted your 'expression of interest' as an instruction to arrange for the entire electrical installation to be inspected - so that's what he arranged.

Yes, that sums it up nicely....I don't have a problem with that at all..

However, none of this alters the fact that whoever undertook the recent work (seemingly the builder) should have issued an EIC or MWC, even if they were not an electrician. A 'third party' electrician cannot issue certificates for work that they have not undertaken.

This is the sticking point... I might be splitting hairs here, and I've gone ahead and paid the invoice regardless, but I'm keen to understand if I've effectively paid for something - or a portion of something - twice. If the new work required testing and certifying as a matter of course, had I not requested I'd like the whole house inspecting, the builder would have had to foot a percentage of the £200 odd invoice I've paid. Instead, the invoice has been passed in whole to me, and the builder has not had to pay anything to get his new work signed off.....

Thanks for your advice.

 

[JohnW2]

This is the sticking point... I might be splitting hairs here, and I've gone ahead and paid the invoice regardless, but I'm keen to understand if I've effectively paid for something - or a portion of something - twice. If the new work required testing and certifying as a matter of course, had I not requested I'd like the whole house inspecting, the builder would have had to foot a percentage of the £200 odd invoice I've paid.

There are really two different 'somethings' here. As you imply, it is the responsibility (not 'an option') of whoever undertakes electrical work (the builder in this case) to provide an EIC or MWC relating to any work they have done - which, as well as relating to testing, certifies that the person signing the certificate has 'designed and constructed' the work. Despite what many people (seemingly including your builder) seem to think, there is no provision for a third-party electrician to certify (on an EIC or MWC) 'after the event', work which they have not undertaken themselves.

An EICR is a different matter. It is just what it says - and consists of a report on the inspection and testing of an entire electrical installation and is in no way related to any recent work which may have been done.

The problem with an 'after the event' EICR is that although the inspection (of accessible parts) and testing will include any new work, and in some senses therefore confirms that the new work is 'safe', inspection is limited to what is accessible/visible, and therefore cannot vouch for the satisfactoriness/safety of all the work that has been done (e.g. if some of it is below floors, above ceilings or within walls).

Due to the misunderstanding, your builder has arranged for you to have an EICR undertaken, for which you therefore have had to pay. However, I think that, quite apart from the EICR, you should be pressing your builder for an EIC in relation to the work that he undertook.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Hi,
I've now received the report and it's an EICR for all the circuits in the house. There's no mention of the new work on it, just existing. Is this sufficient for the building regs requirements?

I'm still a bit perplexed... I get the feeling the builder should've paid for the inspection of the new work, but instead, he's got the sparky to do a full EICR and pass the full cost to me....

I would have expected a completion certificate to be issued for the new work, and a EICR for old work. The new work may have been covered in a number of ways.
1) The builder could have included the electrics in the LABC submission and the LABC could have selected an electrician to inspect the work which the builder would have needed to pay for, he would likely issue an EICR which would go to the LABC who would then issue a completion certificate.
1b) The builder could issue an installation certificate since he did the work, but likely he has not the skill or tools to do this, so likely you will not get an installation certificate, however the installation certificate is not a legal requirement.
2) The electrician is authorised to do third party inspections and will have through his scheme provider issued a compliance certificate, again likely no installation certificate will be issued as with 1).
3) The electrician has lied and said he did the work, in which case you will get both an installation certificate and a compliance certificate.
The old work would require declaring to the LABC and the EICR being sent to them, with fees to get a completion certificate to cover the old work, personally I would say that was a complete waste of money, even if legally required.

As John says the installation or minor works certificate can only be issued by the person doing the work, but although the regulations require them to be issued they are not legally required documents. Neither is the EICR a legally required document except in Scotland for rented accommodation. Only the compliance or completion certificate are legally required and these are only required for some work which varies between England and Wales done after 2004. In England work done before a date can't remember the date may need a certificate, but after the date it does not.

So in real terms if there is a date of manufacturer on the consumer unit which is latter then 2004 then there must be a certificate for it. For the rest it is near impossible to prove when the circuit was new, the cable may have been renewed, but it could have been an existing circuit so unless some one stands up and says I did it in year xxxx and it was a new circuit, it in nearly impossible to prove.

So in real terms as long as you have a completion or compliance certificate for the consumer unit, then there is nothing else that is needed. OK nice to know everything is OK with an EICR but other than rented accommodation in Scotland it is not really required.