Rain water gutter onto shared private access - Help Needed

[Prototype]

Hi, can someone advise me please

I own a business and have an alleyway to my property which my customers use. It is also shared by some shops for their rear access.

Within the last month one of the shops has installed a rain water pipe from their flat roof and it runs onto the alley (see photo)
I have a problem with this because when it rains It causes a nuisance because a large amount of water spreads across the alley and my customers have to walk directly through it. Also the water is coming off a flat roof and it takes ages to drain because the roof puddles so the outlet is running water for quite some time after its finished raining.

I have my own rain water pipe (left in the photo) which has been there since 1973 and the rain water comes from a pitched roof so its run off is quick. The water also runs close to my property. We gained permission in the 1970's for this to be installed.

The shop didn't ask permission from myself or any of the other shop keepers who use the alley and when I spoke to them about it they claim they have been having water coming into their shop causing damp in their storeroom so have re-routed the water off their roof.

As the water finally runs from the shared alley into the highway do they need permission from the water board/council?

Do I have the right to get it removed?

Any advice please would be gratefully received

Untitled

• Prototype
• 26 Jan 2010
• 1

 

[RedHerring]

Your neighbour should have had permission from the Local Authority to allow surface water to drain onto/across the pavement.
Up until a few years ago the LA used to ignore this even though it wasn't explicitly legal but now Planning Permission is required.
If the LA do not give permission an alternative such as a soakaway is required which is subject to Building Regs. Failing that permission to discharge to foul water drains is required from the local Water Board.

 

[RedHerring]

Deleted

 

[ottosump]

I would imagine the local council would support your concerns, not only are your customers having to traipse through the standing water, but during the cold weather this is down right dangerous, it is inconsiderate and antisocial. Let’s hope that your neighbours are well insured as this is an accident lawyers dream.
Regards
Otto

 

[Prototype]

Your neighbour should have had permission from the Local Authority to allow surface water to drain onto/across the pavement.
Up until a few years ago the LA used to ignore this even though it wasn't explicitly legal but now Planning Permission is required.
If the LA do not give permission an alternative such as a soakaway is required which is subject to Building Regs. Failing that permission to discharge to foul water drains is required from the local Water Board.

I thought as much. I did hear you need planning if you want to run surface water into the highway so thank you for confirming this.

Do you think my own water pipe will be an issue as the shop has said to me 'Well you have one so we copied you'?

Imagine if ever shop copied and did the same, we would have a river running

 

[Nige F]

Hi, can someone advise me please

I own a business and have an alleyway to my property which my customers use. It is also shared by some shops for their rear access.

You own the buisiness- do you own the alleyway - or is it all leasehold - Ownership is 9 -10th of the law. Get your deeds out - and an old sock to stuff in the pipe ....Blame the ASBO kids

 

[RedHerring]

Do you think my own water pipe will be an issue as the shop has said to me 'Well you have one so we copied you'?

I have my own rain water pipe (left in the photo) which has been there since 1973..... We gained permission in the 1970's for this to be installed.

Do I have the right to get it removed?

I'm not confident that my previous post was absolutely accurate or included all the considerations.
Planning Permission is now required for surface water discharge from a new hard standing to the pavement/highway. I can only assume that this applies to new surface water pipe discharge because it initially discharges to the hard standing and thence to the highway. Clarification may be needed.
My understanding is that up until about 1998 permission was not sought and the LA ignored instances of surface water discharge to the highway.
So you may have answered your own question. Yours was installed in 1973 and had permission.
However, i think that the LA could still take action under the 'Obstruction' rules. i.e. Surface water could be considered an obstruction to the highway.
Finally, you do not have the right to ask your neigbour to remove the pipe, only the owner of the shared alley has the right to require the 'owner' of the new pipe to dispose the surface water from his roof without inconvenience to others. You should not willfully discharge surface water onto someone else's property.
The LA also have the right to take appropriate action to remove or prevent the discharge of water to the highway. However, and this is where it may get murky (pun intended), is the surface water the responsibility of the alley owner or the shop owner, once it's out of the pipe?

 

[Prototype]

Do you think my own water pipe will be an issue as the shop has said to me 'Well you have one so we copied you'?

I have my own rain water pipe (left in the photo) which has been there since 1973..... We gained permission in the 1970's for this to be installed.

Do I have the right to get it removed?

I'm not confident that my previous post was absolutely accurate or included all the considerations.
Planning Permission is now required for surface water discharge from a new hard standing to the pavement/highway. I can only assume that this applies to new surface water pipe discharge because it initially discharges to the hard standing and thence to the highway. Clarification may be needed.
My understanding is that up until about 1998 permission was not sought and the LA ignored instances of surface water discharge to the highway.
So you may have answered your own question. Yours was installed in 1973 and had permission.
However, i think that the LA could still take action under the 'Obstruction' rules. i.e. Surface water could be considered an obstruction to the highway.
Finally, you do not have the right to ask your neigbour to remove the pipe, only the owner of the shared alley has the right to require the 'owner' of the new pipe to dispose the surface water from his roof without inconvenience to others. You should not willfully discharge surface water onto someone else's property.
The LA also have the right to take appropriate action to remove or prevent the discharge of water to the highway. However, and this is where it may get murky (pun intended), is the surface water the responsibility of the alley owner or the shop owner, once it's out of the pipe?

Well there is one thing I know for sure there is no owner of the alley. I have checked this before at land registry and it really is no mans land, purely a shared access.
Do you think that will make a difference or can I act as a user and ask him to remove it?

 

[Nige F]

I guess you could claim Adverse Possesion of it as you`ve been there and using/maintaining it for many years - otherwise it`s a real grey area. Problem being that you may then posess any services etc. under the ground and be liable for them too

 

[Prototype]

I guess you could claim Adverse Possesion of it as you`ve been there and using/maintaining it for many years - otherwise it`s a real grey area. Problem being that you may then posess any services etc. under the ground and be liable for them too

Well its hard to go into all details on here but the alley was originally access for my property as the previous company owned the whole site. My sewers run under it and further up there is a drain for surface water which runs into my sewer.

 

[RedHerring]

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as no-mans land because, in my experience it would then eventually revert to the crown. If you then think about adverse possesion you need to think in terms of 25 years.
Best speaking to a solicitor well versed in such matters, I think.

Otherwise, if the alley has not been sold or otherwise allocated, surely it still belongs to the original owner, even if they have no interest in it.

If you did eventually own the alley you could enforce your neighbour to redirect his surface water away from your property, otherwise and especially because the LA could take action against you for allowing it to discharge to the highway.

 

[RedHerring]

can I act as a user and ask him to remove it?

If, as you say, it is a shared access only, then the joint owners/users should be able to act as one and request the neighbour does not discharge water to your property. This should be enforceable.

 

[Nige F]

I thought it was 12 years Ad, Pos. Any chance of diverting the rainwater pipe to the surface gulley further up - that you mentioned

 

[RedHerring]

I thought it was 12 years Ad, Pos. Any chance of diverting the rainwater pipe to the surface gulley further up - that you mentioned

Last time I was looking into it, about 5 years ago, it was 12 years normally, but 25 years for crown land, if I remember correctly.

 

[RedHerring]

I thought it was 12 years Ad, Pos. Any chance of diverting the rainwater pipe to the surface gulley further up - that you mentioned

Last time I was looking into it, about 5 years ago, it was 12 years normally, but 25 years for crown land, if I remember correctly.

Sorry, just checked, it's 30 years:
http://www.manches.com/downloads/briefings/Adverse_possession.pdf

I think it is not possible for Prototype to claim adverse possesion anyway because it's land that's been shared by the other users. For adverse possesion you have to demonstrate ownership by control of the land e.g. fences, locks, etc