Range rating, modulation and manually setting the CH temperature question.

[vulcancontinental]

As far as I know soft start is unaffected by controls, soft start is power, modulating control sets a target temperature.

If you connect 240 volts to any of our system boiler it will be to the onboard relay which is ready fitted as switching of the boiler is 24v. If the relay is powered the ON state will be ignored by the boiler when connected by OT as switching by voltage is automatically disabled, boiler control is only by the protocol.

I don’t know about Nest but I use EPH. Their receivers will tell the boiler to run and at what temperature by OT, the highest temperature requested takes preference. Each receiver also has a relay that will power a MV simultaneously so it does the two jobs.

I do not know how long you will have to wait for the Vibe Max S, none have been produced AFAIK as 80%+ of what we sell are combis and they’re in greatest demand.

 

[JonathanM]

I do not know how long you will have to wait for the Vibe Max S, none have been produced AFAIK as 80%+ of what we sell are combis and they’re in greatest demand.

Will there be a new regular boiler with SS heat exchanger?

 

[vulcancontinental]

Will there be a new regular boiler with SS heat exchanger?

I cant be sure, that's above my pay grade.

 

[mpgw]

As far as I know soft start is unaffected by controls, soft start is power, modulating control sets a target temperature.

If you connect 240 volts to any of our system boiler it will be to the onboard relay which is ready fitted as switching of the boiler is 24v. If the relay is powered the ON state will be ignored by the boiler when connected by OT as switching by voltage is automatically disabled, boiler control is only by the protocol.

I don’t know about Nest but I use EPH. Their receivers will tell the boiler to run and at what temperature by OT, the highest temperature requested takes preference. Each receiver also has a relay that will power a MV simultaneously so it does the two jobs.

I do not know how long you will have to wait for the Vibe Max S, none have been produced AFAIK as 80%+ of what we sell are combis and they’re in greatest demand.

Could you put this feature request to the Vokera product management team - I think if the boiler can respond to both OT and 240v triggers then it would go a long way to helping people enable PDHW in S-plan systems ( and sell more Vokera boilers along the way )

Also when you use EPH, do you just send the 240v output from the receiver to the motor live brown wire on the zone valve to open it and ignore the switched live orange output wire from that same zone valve? The boiler is fired only via the EPH receiver OT at the same time the valve is opening.
If that's the case then I presume the same applies for Nest i.e. send the 240v call for heat output from Nest Heat Link via terminal 3/6 to the zone valve whilst the boiler is fired by OT from the Nest Heat Link. (This assumes that the Heat Link does BOTH i.e. OT and 240v switched live call for heat)

 

[mpgw]

No, range rating limits the maximum power whereas turning the temperature down limits the maximum temperature

If you range rate a boiler to say 6kw, you are telling it to produce a max output of 6 kw which results in some flow temp of Y deg C which is unknown right?
If you limit the flow temperature to say 55 deg C, you are telling the boiler to produce a max unknown output of X kw to get a 55 deg C flow temp right?
With one you specify the Kw output, the other you specify a flow temp output - the aim of both being to get the boiler to condense more of the time it is on. If that is the case then I would say flow temp is a more predictable way to achieve boiler condensing mode if you know your system delta T e.g. if you know your system delta T is 10 deg C for a flow temp of 55 deg C then you know your boiler is in condensing mode as the return temp will be 45 deg C.

 

[vulcancontinental]

Could you put this feature request to the Vokera product management team - I think if the boiler can respond to both OT and 240v triggers then it would go a long way to helping people enable PDHW in S-plan systems ( and sell more Vokera boilers along the way )

Also when you use EPH, do you just send the 240v output from the receiver to the motor live brown wire on the zone valve to open it and ignore the switched live orange output wire from that same zone valve? The boiler is fired only via the EPH receiver OT at the same time the valve is opening.
If that's the case then I presume the same applies for Nest i.e. send the 240v call for heat output from Nest Heat Link via terminal 3/6 to the zone valve whilst the boiler is fired by OT from the Nest Heat Link. (This assumes that the Heat Link does BOTH i.e. OT and 240v switched live call for heat)

No need, we already make a boiler with diverter valve inside that can be connected to heating and domestic hot water cylinder reheat, we just don't sell it in the UK.

I put the suggestion that we do bring it into the UK but in the UK the heat only boiler market is comparatively minuscule when compared to combi's as to not make it worthwhile.

EPH works fine PDHW with our system boilers, I have one in a neighbours house with a Vision Plus system boiler working exactly that way. Nest I can't answer for.

 

[mpgw]

No need, we already make a boiler with diverter valve inside that can be connected to heating and domestic hot water cylinder reheat, we just don't sell it in the UK.

I put the suggestion that we do bring it into the UK but in the UK the heat only boiler market is comparatively minuscule when compared to combi's as to not make it worthwhile.

EPH works fine PDHW with our system boilers, I have one in a neighbours house with a Vision Plus system boiler working exactly that way. Nest I can't answer for.

Can you tell me the boiler model number please - is it available in the EU e.g. Rep of Ireland?

 

[vulcancontinental]

I don't imagine it would be available in the UK or Ireland but probably Italy.

The boilers are sold as Beretta and the model would be the Mynute X R

Basically a Vision Plus S but a 4 pipe boiler with a F&R for heating and separate F&R for cylinder reheat.

I have suggested to product we need this in the range but it fell on deaf ears

 

[JonathanM]

I don't imagine it would be available in the UK or Ireland but probably Italy.

The boilers are sold as Beretta and the model would be the Mynute X R

Basically a Vision Plus S but a 4 pipe boiler with a F&R for heating and separate F&R for cylinder reheat.

I have suggested to product we need this in the range but it fell on deaf ears

Something slightly related! Is the open vent type of system popular on the continent, or is that mainly a UK thing?

 

[mpgw]

One more question please @vulcancontinental, Vibe Max has a 5 year warranty, Vision Plus is a 7 year warranty and costs more - what additional features does the Vision Plus have over the Vibe Max that give it a longer warranty and higher cost?

 

[vulcancontinental]

Something slightly related! Is the open vent type of system popular on the continent, or is that mainly a UK thing?

A universal thing almost

 

[vulcancontinental]

One more question please @vulcancontinental, Vibe Max has a 5 year warranty, Vision Plus is a 7 year warranty and costs more - what additional features does the Vision Plus have over the Vibe Max that give it a longer warranty and higher cost?

Power outputs, appearance, slightly different internals (makes no difference to performance) software capabilities (Vision Plus can be configured with accessories to drive additional zones at various temperatures), larger expansion vessel to accommodate a larger heating system volume.

It's available now and the Vibe Max system boilers are not.

 

[mpgw]

Power outputs, appearance, slightly different internals (makes no difference to performance) software capabilities (Vision Plus can be configured with accessories to drive additional zones at various temperatures), larger expansion vessel to accommodate a larger heating system volume.

This idea of driving additional zones sounds perfect as I'm considering replacing my downstairs rads with a retrofit UFH e.g Wunda,Polypipe etc next year.
The Vision Plus manual describes how I can add a BE16 accessory board to manage an additional zone and enable it by setting parameter P4.23.
The manual entry for this parameter states:
"P.4.23
This parameter allows you to activate the management of an additional heating zone (the use of the BE16 accessory board is required, not supplied as standard).
The default value is 0, set to 1 to activate the function.
Note: this parameter cannot be changed when an OTBus chronothermostat is connected."

Does the last line mean that if I use EPH Opentherm controls (which I assume is an OTBus chronothermostat) then I can't activate an additional heating zone via a BE16 accessory board?

 

[danlightbulb]

Interesting read.

I too am wondering how range rating would be influenced by, or influence, the heating flow temperature dial. Is it possible a boiler that is range rated too low could not reach the higher heating flow temperatures on the dial in very cold conditions?

Also how would one tell if an inherited boiler has been range rated? The newer ones have digital settings but older boilers I assume its by adjusting something within the boiler itself which can't be messed with by a non gas safe registered person.

Overall, it feels like that with modern digital technology and controls these days, an intelligent thermostat should have full control over boiler output, pump speed, flow temperature etc to perfectly optimise a boiler for its situation automatically and dynamically.

 

[vulcancontinental]

Interesting read.

I too am wondering how range rating would be influenced by, or influence, the heating flow temperature dial. Is it possible a boiler that is range rated too low could not reach the higher heating flow temperatures on the dial in very cold conditions?

Also how would one tell if an inherited boiler has been range rated? The newer ones have digital settings but older boilers I assume its by adjusting something within the boiler itself which can't be messed with by a non gas safe registered person.

Overall, it feels like that with modern digital technology and controls these days, an intelligent thermostat should have full control over boiler output, pump speed, flow temperature etc to perfectly optimise a boiler for its situation automatically and dynamically.

Of course if it is rated too low but the property has a calculated loss at what are called design temperatures (the lowest anticipated in the geographic area), that is what it is rated to match.

If the emitters are sized correctly the input would match the loss, operating temperature, hopefully by self-adjusting controls, will be adequate.

The commissioning document should have record of any adjustment to heating output, ours is a box requiring date and signature. It could also be checked by gas rate.

Actually now it can be adjusted by anyone without breach of GSIUR but probably best not to although I just finished a video today explaining how to do this on one of our boilers which will be public.

With your last paragraph you've just described bus control and integrated boiler software. I wonder how long before that will be done from a central server with only time and comfort levels selected locally.