Removing 80s partition walls in Grade II listed building - advice please

[Richard H]

Hello


First post – thanks in advance for any advice.


I am buying a flat in a Grade II (19th Century) building.


The building was split into flats in the 1970s or 80s.


Within the flat there are no original features remaining – fireplaces, cornices, ceiling roses etc are all long gone.


There is wooden partition walling from the 70s/80s conversion, also kitchen and bathroom from the same period.


Before I contact local planning can anyone give me any advice on removing these 70s/80s features?


Do I need permission to remove them?


I am not looking at removing any original (structural) walls or ceilings – just the, relatively modern, partition walling (which is in poor shape)


Thanks


Richard H

 

[bernardgreen]

If the partitions were there on the date the building was listed then they are and should remain part of the Listed Building.

If they were installed after the building was listed and there is proof of that then the Conservation Officer may require you to remove them.

Most Conservation Offficers will be prepared to informally discuss the matter.

There is no charge for a planning application relating to a Listed Building but there is a lot of paper work that has to be presented with the application.

 

[napoleondynamite]

All internal alterations will require listed building consent.

Whether what you want to change is 'historic' is not relevant to whether listed building consent is required.

It may be relevant to whether listed building consent is granted though.

 

[chappers]

Further complications could also arise if the original alterations were unauthorised and for example in the process they removed something of architectural/historic interest.
But yes as Napoleon says you will almost certainly need permission if the structures are deemed permanent, but as Bernard alludes to there are numerous factors involved around getting that permission.
As this flat has no architectural merit left I wonder why you are considering buying it, bear in mind that any shared maintenance to the fabric of the building is likely to be costly, due to the listed status.
I would for the time being , get onto the conservation officer and ask their opinion also find out when it was listed here. then try and find out from planning/ building control when it was converted and if the partitions in question were part of the conversion.
That will give you a better idea as to the likely outcome of an application or whether you really need to make one.

 

[^woody^]

Get a copy of the listing to see what was noted. If it was not noted on the listing, then no-one knows if it is or was removed.

Fire surrounds, cornices, roses etc are decorations not structural features.

 

[bernardgreen]

My cottage is Grade II listed. A partition installed by a previous owner but after the building was Listed has been removed as it was falling down due to water damage. It will not be replaced as it was not there at the listing date.. Strictly speaking I should have mentioned it before removal but when the Conservation OFficer saw it has been removed and it could not have been original or historic he did not require me to apply for retrospective Consent as it would have been granted but only after a considerable amount of ( un-necessary ) paper work and administration processes ( box ticking ) that the council could not charge for.

That said getting consent for the like for like re-thatching did require some negotiation about the style of ridge. Again a matter of what was there when it was listed and what was there last year when the application was made. Preserving the ancient rafters was a condition and new load bearing ones had to installed between the ancient ones. Some rafters were crumbling away and were being held in place by the mat of thatch.

 

[^woody^]

when the Conservation OFficer saw

Do conservation officers randomly come to your house to check the internal arrangement to make sure that no work has been done?

AFAIK, they have no powers of entry.

 

[bernardgreen]

Fire surrounds, cornices, roses etc are decorations not structural features.

Listing can extend to such items. A built in corner cupboard in my cottage has to be preserved as it "appears" to be historic.

As this flat has no architectural merit left I wonder why you are considering buying it

A good point. Unless there is a very good reason for buying a Listed Property the problems and costs that can arise over the years can make owning a Listed Building very problematic.

Do conservation officers randomly come to your house to check the internal arrangement to make sure that no work has been done? AFAIK, they have no powers of entry.

Shortly after purchase I invited the Conservation Officer to visit and assist me in knowing what could and couldn't be done. Strict but very helpful.

I believe that on evidence of suspected alterations without Consent a Conservation Officer can in extreme cases ask the police to assist in gaining entry to inspect the property as it is a criminal offence to carry out certain works without consent..

Most council websites have information pages about their policy. There is a national policy which councils have to follow but the local policies vary slightly from council to council

An example http://www.centralbedfordshire.gov.uk/environment/conservation/listed-buildings.aspx

 

[^woody^]

built in

Therein lies the clue.

Unless its part of the listing, or part of the structure, then if its decorations/decorative then you dont need permission to change things.

The thing with internal work is that it's very difficult to know what was there unless its specifically noted. So changes are not only hard to spot, but even harder to enforce against. There is no right of entry for inspection, no requirement to invite inspection, and no powers to require entry for inspection.

 

[bernardgreen]

Local planning authorities can gain entry to Listed buildings by force where the owner has refused permission. The powers to do so are set out under Section 88 of the Planning (Listed Buildings & Conservation Areas) Act 1990, and additional powers under Sections 88A and 88B were granted by Schedule 3 of the Planning & Compensation Act 1990. The most likely need to use these provisions is in connection with Urgent Works under Section 54 and full Repair Notices under Section 48, but forced entry may also be gained for the purposes of issuing or serving any order or notice relating to listing, control of works, applications or conditions of consent, appeals or revocations (Sections 1-26 of the Act).

Police are notified to be ready to attend if a Breach of the Peace results from the forced entry

Full document here http://www.ihbc.org.uk/guidance_notes/docs/tech_papers/forced_entry_guidance_note.htm

 

[chappers]

indeed the listing mainly concentrates around the features of historic value

 

[Richard H]

Thanks for all your comments.

Historic England say it was listed in 1992. The listing says a lot about the exterior. As regards the interior it says 'retains original staircases, cornices and ceiling roses' - these are obviously not in the flat I am buying.

The flat has had the same person living in it for 20+ years... needs work.

What happens regarding putting a new kitchen and bathroom in?

Permissions needed?

 

[bernardgreen]

What happens regarding putting a new kitchen and bathroom in?

Again talk to the Conservation Officer. Most accept that to conserve a building it has to be suitable to be a viable home or business premises and this requres some modern facilities. If it doesn't have a viable use for lack of facilities then it will be vacated and most likely fall into dis-repair and be lost. ( enforcement of remedial works then happens if the owner can be found )

 

[Nakajo]

Both sides are right. And until the government tidies up the listing system (as has been discussed) I'm afraid confusion in respect of this matter will continue. Nevertheless I would advise a cautious approach, i.e. if there is any doubt, ask - after all, it's (potentially) a criminal offence, with no limitation on when action can be taken.

 

[^woody^]

Police are notified to be ready to attend if a Breach of the Peace results from the forced entry

Full document here http://www.ihbc.org.uk/guidance_notes/docs/tech_papers/forced_entry_guidance_note.htm

Not without a warrant they can't. And a warrant wont be granted on the basis of just to have a mooch around.

The Police are not notified. They may be requested to attend, but again there would need to be a very good reason to suppose that the BoTP is likley to occur. The Police have no powers to otherwise get involved with access.

As for "force entry", the council will be responsible for any damge they cause in accessing the property. No if's or but's.