Selling House - Loft Window and Building Control

[dazt86]

We moved into our 3 bed house last year.
It has a loft space used for storage, not as a habitable space, and not marketed as one.
We have come to sell the house, but the buyers wanted the loft window replaced (conditional in their offer)
Stupidly, I got a roofer to do this, forgetting it needed a certificate for the window in order to sell the house.
The roofer is not part of any scheme and could not certify their work, so I was told I needed to apply to building control and again, stupidly (in hindsight) - I did.
Building control took some money, came out and took a 20 second glance at the window, said it seemed fine, but asked about the loft conversion. I told them it was pre-existing and we only use as a storage space. Follow up from the building control officer said they couldn't approve the window because it was part of an unauthorised loft conversion. They gave me two options: Get it fully converted to regulations, or convert it back to storage. This room is used for storage so we would like to pursue the latter. The loft room currently has the following features:-
- 1 x roof window
- ceiling board and wall board (looks like with cellotex attached behind) - not plastered.
- 2 x lights
- 2 x power sockets.
- floors are boarded, with carpet overlaid - very old carpet
- A functioning loft hatch (opens and closes)
- For access - a wooden ladder that slots up against two brackets on the loft hatch and is fixed in place using 4 screws. We remove the ladder when not in use as it takes up too much space on the ladding when in place and becomes an obstacle.

The window that was replaced is 25 years old so we believe this work is most likely atleast 25 years old, however as there are many previous owners we have no idea exactly when it was carried out or by who.

The building control officer has advised us that we need to remove:-
- All linings (hasn't clarified exactly what these are)
- all services (so we are guessing this means all electrics - does this mean sockets and lights - guess so)
- fixed access (the wooden ladder we didnt consider fixed due to the fact we remove it when not in use, but I guess I can see how the fact its screwed in place someone might think its left like that permanantly)

We are very worried that we won't be able to sell the house as:-

1. The officer has said this will now show up on searches.
2. The officer won't sign off the replaced window despite saying it "looked fine" at the time, due to the loft.

I am looking for advice in terms of:-
1. Is it possible to bypass building control, get a fensa improved installer to re-install the window and provide a cert, to enable us to sell the house (this is the only legal requirement we have to enable the sale to proceed - the buyers are aware that the loft room is storage space and not to building regs)
2. What should I consider as reasonable demands to "convert" the room "back" to storage (in the eyes of building control, it all seems a bit non objective to me).

 

[^woody^]

You did not need permission for the loft window in the first place

See three posts down in the forum before you posted, regarding the conversion work Converted Loft (Denied) | DIYnot Forums

 

[dazt86]

You did not need permission for the loft window in the first place

See three posts down in the forum before you posted, regarding the conversion work Converted Loft (Denied) | DIYnot Forums

Ouch.. I'm now preying they show mercy..

Just to clarify, we never sought "permission" for replacing the loft window, it's a fensa / completion cert we need legally to supply, for the sale to proceed. As the roofer who did the replacement window wasn't a fensa / certass member he couldn't give us one but building control can apparently hence why we got them involved - and now wished we hadn't. In retrospect we should have gone back to the buyers and asked them to replace the window after they move in and knocked a grand off their offer price for their troubles, or used a fensa / certass approved installer.

I'm keen to know if there is any reason why we can't side step building control for the loft space issue and get the window reinstalled by a fensa / certass member who will register the work for the replacement window with the local authority and give us a fensa certificate. This will cost £500-£1000 but won't deter our buyers as much as completely ripping out the posh loft if that's what building control do suggest!

Also the fact the loft room was done 25 years ago, I am guessing enforcement action to "deconvert" would be unlikely?

 

[tony1851]

@ Woody; presumably the council couldn't enforce under s/s 35, 36 as it is well out of time, but could apply for an injunction. But the onus would then be on the council to prove the loft was unsafe. Would the council take the risk of this, with costs if they lost the case?

 

[^woody^]

@ Woody; presumably the council couldn't enforce under s/s 35, 36 as it is well out of time, but could apply for an injunction. But the onus would then be on the council to prove the loft was unsafe. Would the council take the risk of this, with costs if they lost the case?

Not complying with building regulations is deemed unsafe by default and unlawful, and at would put the onus on the homeowner to prove otherwise.

These are public life safety issues and being on notice of such a conversion puts the council in an awkward place if they do not enforce.

 

[^woody^]

I'm keen to know if there is any reason why we can't side step building control for the loft space issue and get the window reinstalled by a fensa / certass member who will register the work for the replacement window with the local authority and give us a fensa certificate

The council already know about the conversion.

FENSA should not certify an install which is unlawful - they are certifying things like means of escape, suitability for the room, fire safety and suchlike that's what self certification legislation requires.

 

[tony1851]

Presumably it's not contrary to Building Regs to have a pull-down loft ladder so that the roof void can be used for storage?
Would it be contrary to Building Regs to put carpet down on the chipboard? And to line the walls and sloping rafters to stop dust getting onto the stuff you store? And to have light switch to avoid having to use a torch? And even a Velux for some natural light?

I would have thought that the difference between 'loft storage' and 'habitable room' is defined by the access, ie a permanent staircase makes it habitable, whereas a pull-down ladder doesn't.

I suspect that the council might be acting ultra vires if they tried to make the OP rip out everything as long as he installed a pull-down ladder.

 

[^woody^]

A dog born in a stable is not a horse.

If the roof, the floor, the electrics, the day lighting, the access have been converted, then it's a conversion.

 

[tony1851]

If he replaced the screw-on step ladder with a pull-down ladder, it would just be storage and not regarded as habitable.

If the inspector has seen no bed or other bedroom furniture up there, then he has no right to say "it's a bedroom", and would be acting unlawfully if he served Notice to rip out the carpet, electrics and wall/rooflining etc.

If, for example, OPs neighbour had a pull-down loft ladder, would the inspector have the power to insist that he goes up in their loft to check it's not being used as a bedroom?

@ Woody: I wonder if, in the two cases you mentioned, the owners were too quick to comply with the council's demands, and maybe should have just installed loft ladders and removed the bedroom furniture rather than strip everything out. Are loft ladders illegal?

 

[mrrusty]

We have a pull down loft ladder. We also have a fully plaster-boarded and insulated attic storage space with a socket and lights, chip flooring and we have also chucked an old rug down that was going spare - just for somewhere to put it. The space is built on additional timbers inside the roof to maintain ventilation. No windows though. BC was well aware because we got sign off on our extension and roof work. No question about the storage - it obviously is - with the loft ladder down you can't use the landing.

 

[dazt86]

The council already know about the conversion.

FENSA should not certify an install which is unlawful - they are certifying things like means of escape, suitability for the room, fire safety and suchlike that's what self certification legislation requires.

The fensa self certification requirements of an install of a replacement window in a loft storage space, versus a habitable space (I.e a bedroom) will be different. The fensa installer I spoke to had no issues quoting me to replace the window in our loft storage space. The things you elude to (like fire escape etc) are much less stringent in this case compared to if this was a habitable space.

So my question is this: if the fensa installer is happy to install the window and give me the cert, is there some process by which the council could intercede and block that? I'm a bit worried that I'd effectively pay for this window to be installed a second time (by the fensa installer) and then find out somehow the fensa cert has been null and voided by the council somehow..

 

[dazt86]

My main gripe was that the inspector wasn't able to give any objective reasons for his decision - blanket statements like "remove all linings", "remove carpets" aren't helpful when there are companies out there that specifically install linings and carpets, sockets and lighting to upgrade storage spaces - yet thats perfectly fine it seems. I'd be happy to comply with any reasonable request but just like with a doctor, if one tells you you are seriously ill but you feel fine, you wonder if its prudent to get a second opinion. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[^woody^]

It's not the inspectors job to tell you - more so, they should not tell you what to do and you can't rely on it if they do. They inspect what you have done, the onus it's on you to conform to the regulations, and get professional independent advice if you don't know.

 

[jacko555]

Just do a fensa install and move on

 

[biryani_boy]

take the electricity out, remove the carpet and you're done.