Should I really be surprised ...

[SimonH2]

Doing a few odd jobs at church* today, one of them being to investigate a leak in one of the heaters. Anyway, I found the wiring to be a little "interesting"
* Where I am now (thanks to being too slow to say no) on the PCC and the H&S person.

These heaters are basic fan coils plumbed into the old heating system, and controlled by stats on the pipes (so they come on when the water is hot, and go off when it's gone cold). AFAIK they were fitted a few years ago.
One of them gets little or no flow from the main system pump, so it's got it's own pump activated by it's own pipe stat. However I personally wouldn't class this as "suitably protected by placing out of reach", nor would I rate the strain relief very highly :
This is the pipe stat - complete with exposed (at least for little fingers) live parts.

And for context, here it is underneath the heater

So that's defect number one. Only one of the heaters has this exposed thermal switch, they all have another one but that's on an internal pipe and I'd say is well enough out of reach unless you take the cover off.

Then we revisit the "can you use a green/yellow core for something else" question :

There's a 3 speed switch for the fan, and they've used a bit of 4 core (3core + earth) flex for it - using the brown, blue, black cores for the 3 fan speeds, and the green/yellow core for the live feed
For good measure, see how they've snipped the earth core off that other cable ? It's going to one of the pipe stats, so they've snipped off the earth core at both ends - personally I'd have connected it at the terminal block just so that there isn't a cable with an unearthed earth core.

Here's the back of the switch :

Reckon that switch (with metal toggle and fixing) is DI ?
I haven't checked the other heaters, but I assume they are the same.

And for good measure, I think this about sums up the workmanship (the pluming is similarly "neat and tidy") :

So I make the tally :

• Exposed live parts
• Lack of strain relief
• Use of earth core for live feed
• Unearthed exposed metallic parts
• Earth core in cable that isn't earthed at source end

Agree ? Disagree ? CBA ?

Raise it and "just fix it" ? Or raise it and haul the installers in for a bit of a grilling ? Report the installers to whatever body they are in ?

 

[JohnW2]

There's a 3 speed switch for the fan, and they've used a bit of 4 core (3core + earth) flex for it - using the brown, blue, black cores for the 3 fan speeds, and the green/yellow core for the live feed

No neutral ?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

This is the switch wiring - should be a bit clearer now I've got the images included. I put them in originally, honest !
The supply goes to two terminals on the block, a live goes up the flex to the internal pipe stat and back to another terminal, then from there it goes up the flex to the speed switch, and then three feeds (one per fan speed) come back to the wiring block. The fan itself is sired from those three terminals with it's own connection to the neutral terminal.

Similarly, a feed goes from the live terminal on the block, down the flex to the pipe stat underneath, then back up the flex where it's joined to another flex that goes to the pump, with the pump having it's own neutral connection on the wiring block.

 

[JohnW2]

(images weren't there when I posted!)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Then we revisit the "can you use a green/yellow core for something else" question :

They aren't oversleeved, so they must be cpcs.

You aren't suggesting, surely, that the people who did it are criminals? Because they would be if they didn't oversleeve.

Or raise it and haul the installers in for a bit of a grilling ? Report the installers to whatever body they are in ?

Both.

Plus as much noise as you can possibly make, to as many people as you can possibly reach, about criminal charges being levelled. If there's a Parish newsletter, a notice in every issue lambasting them and accusing them of incompetence and criminal negligence. Dare them to sue.

 

[SimonH2]

Yeah, something doesn't work right for images. It looks like you can paste them in while creating a post - but then they disappear on submitting it.

 

[JohnW2]

Yeah, something doesn't work right for images. It looks like you can paste them in while creating a post - but then they disappear on submitting it.

As I recently wrote, my experience is that that is exactly what happens if one attempts to copy/paste an image which is 'too big' (although I don't know what the limit is). It's pastes OK into the message-creating window OK - but then doesn't appear in the actual post.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would talk to vicar, in the main they hold at least a degree so are quite intelligent, the one I know has a doctorate. Let him decide what action to take, as it may be that the firm donates money to parish and it may have been an ex-employee that did the work.

I have seen the other side, where some one wired a house which the DNO said would be TN-C-S but when connected was connected TT with no earth, the home owner published how the electrician had done dangerous work where is was the DNO to blame. So easy to make a mistake.

All it takes is a plumber to leave off the cover, it may or may not have been the electrician so tread carefully.

 

[SimonH2]

I would talk to vicar

Ooh, that's a sore point - we've been interregnum for some time. Won't go into details, but we ended up withholding our payments to the diocese which seemed to have moved the issue further up the agenda for them.
But the main reason for posting here was to confirm (or dispel) my findings before I "go into battle".

I have seen the other side, where some one wired a house which the DNO said would be TN-C-S but when connected was connected TT with no earth, the home owner published how the electrician had done dangerous work where is was the DNO to blame. So easy to make a mistake.

Ouch. That's rather a bad show on the DNO's part - but didn't the sparky do any post-connection tests ?

All it takes is a plumber to leave off the cover, it may or may not have been the electrician so tread carefully.

It was "one outfit" that did the work. Whether the plumbers and electricians were different people is moot - the company employing them and providing their services was responsible. In any case, there's no evidence that there was ever a cover on the thermal switch, and the green/yellow cores didn't magically throw off bits of sleeving.

Mind you, looking at the photos again, I'm starting to wonder about that wiring block which is obviously part of the unit. There's no cover at the bottom of the unit, so if someone were to stick their arm up, there's exposed live terminals to touch. Would need to be quite a contortionist to do it, but then the manufacturer has no control over how they are mounted (a bit higher up on the wall and it becomes easier to get your hand in).
I'll have another look at this when I go back and fix the leak (didn't have what I needed with me last time).

 

[bernardgreen]

In God we trust. does the work.......

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ouch. That's rather a bad show on the DNO's part - but didn't the sparky do any post-connection tests ?

Good question.

Eric said the DNO had said it would be TN-C-S, which surely means a new supply.

So I wonder how there came to be a homeowner present to examine and criticise the electrician's work unless the electrician did indeed energise the installation and issue an EIC, and possibly declare to Building Control that he had made reasonable provision for safety, without doing any, or any adequate, testing.

The DNO may have made a mistake in what they supplied, but any danger was entirely the fault of the electrician.

 

[JohnW2]

I obviously don't know the details but, just in terms of the language .... In at least some regional variants of English, the words "would be" can be used to essentially mean "is" [Q: "What is the name of the Prime Minister?" A: "That would be Theresa May"]. Hence, "the supply would be TN-C-S" probably does not necessarily imply a new supply.
Edit: typo corrected

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes, I thought of that afterwards.

But it makes no difference to the fact that this soi-disant electrician can have done no proper testing.

 

[SimonH2]

Meanwhile, at the risk of returning to the original topic ...
Does anyone disagree with my criticisms of the wiring ?

 

[bernardgreen]

Does anyone disagree with my criticisms of the wiring ?

Yes I do