shower valve fixed to wall....how to tile

[kjacko]

Hi all,
ok this involves plumbing too, so it was a toss up between which forum to post in....
...anyway,
http://www.bathstore.com/products/metro-exposed-thermostatic-shower-valve-1689.html
This is the valve i have and its going on the wall (cavity, obviously)). Currently i've drilled the holes through the plasterboard and put the copper pipes in situ (but not fixed).
I want to plumb it all together to test it before fixing permanently and tiling.
However, when it comes to tiling it, how should i do it?
Tile as normal then when i get up to the holes mark out, drill into the tiles and hope for the best? If i'm lucky the holes will be on the edge of tiles. If i'm unlucky then i'll be drilling a 16mm hole right in the middle of a tile.
Or, maybe drill a 20+mm hole so i have some movement as the valve covers are about 40mm diameter i think.
Does that make any sense?

Advice would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[xr4x4]

I always fit a stud across where the valve is going to go, then attach some 15mm pipe clips under this to hold the pipes to the shower valve.

That way you have some adjustment and can pull or push the valve into place after you have tiled.

 

[kjacko]

I have 2 batons below where the valve will attach (separated by about 300mm). These are drilled in the centres so the pipes go vertically through both for rigidity as the valves only attach to the pipes, not the tiled wall itself. The pipes then elbow out of the wall and obviously the valves fix to that.
It's how the do the tiles that's my main concern and how exact does the length of pipe protruding from the finished tile wall need to be in order for the valve to screw onto the pipes and flush with the wall without gaps.

Hope that makes sense.
I'll take some pics later, might make it easier.

 

[Karis]

First I would advise you loose the plasterboard & replace with Aquapanel. It’s not suitable for a shower unless you tank but with concealed shower valves & pipe work, the back side is always going to be vulnerable & if it gets wet it’ll disintegrate, even the green MR stuff.

Plan the exact position of your mixer valve in conjunction with your proposed tile layout (allow for grout thickness) so you can adjust it to get the best possible looking location in relation to the tiles & so the pipes are not near the tile edge. You can install & test the valve but you will need to dismantle it again to tile, just leaving the pipe stubs sticking out of the wall.

Tile upwards from the shower tray, leaving a 2mm gap to the tray for silicone; adjust the bottom tile to suit the layout & any unevenness, it’s usual to arrange the layout so you cut the bottom tile to fit , even if it’s only a thin sliver. When you get to the shower valve, drill 18mm diameter holes in the exact location of the shower valve pipe stubs, install & connect the valve after you’ve finished tiling.

Edit;
Sorry missed 4x4's post before I posted! Got family here now so have to go, may be able to input more tommorow.

 

[joe-90]

I always fit a stud across where the valve is going to go, then attach some 15mm pipe clips under this to hold the pipes to the shower valve.

That way you have some adjustment and can pull or push the valve into place after you have tiled.

This is a very, very good tip. If you don't do something like this then it's a nightmare.

 

[oilboffin]

I concur

 

[kjacko]

Right then. I'd already put 2 batons in and drilled through them so that the pipe is sturdy.
However the crappy instructions are....crappy. I took them into the store and they couldn't help, so i have to ring their technical dept this morning.

Karis, on this occasion (usually i find your advice useful) i'll not be doing it the way you advise, as it seems 'odd' to tile it that way.
A friend (plumber/tiler) suggested to just tile as normal up to the protruding pipes, if happens to be at the edges of tiles then nibble the bits out as the valve covers are quite generous in size. If its in the centre of a tile etc, just measure that one and drill accordingly.
He also disagreed with starting the tiling with a part tile. Something i've done before and been told off by a different tiler.
It's obvious i've not done this before, and i'm grateful for all advice, but i can only choose one method of acheiving this.

 

[Karis]

i'll not be doing it the way you advise, as it seems 'odd' to tile it that way.

Your choice but which bits seem odd? Planning the best tile layout around the fittings & the tile size is all standard stuff for any competent bathroom fitter/tiler!

A friend (plumber/tiler) suggested to just tile as normal up to the protruding pipes, if happens to be at the edges of tiles then nibble the bits out as the valve covers are quite generous in size. If its in the centre of a tile etc, just measure that one and drill accordingly

So your plumber/tiler friend never takes the tile size/layout or the location of fittings into account, just tiles away does he I bet some of his jobs look interesting! I get to see such efforts all the time on the work I do!

He also disagreed with starting the tiling with a part tile. Something i've done before and been told off by a different tiler.

You don’t necessarily have to, it depends how level straight the shower tray is, the size of the tiles & how to get the best overall layout. The last thing you want is thin tile slivers, or the mixer plate/fittings out of symmetry with the tiles, it looks amateurish. The tiles should be laid level & perpendicular, if the lip of shower tray is level you can start with a full tile (if it suits the layout at the top of the wall) but if the tray falls away, you may still need to trim some tiles or you will end up with an uneven gap & silicone bead. You should start tiling from the second row of tiles off a straight batten, never normally directly off the tray or skirting. If it’s not straight, you’ll get increasingly poor gaps as you go up the wall which will look awful by the time you get near the top.

It's obvious i've not done this before, and i'm grateful for all advice, but i can only choose one method of acheiving this.

Your choice; the way to chose is the correct way but follow your tiler/plumbers friends advice, I’m sure it’ll look great!

 

[kjacko]

Thanks again, its obivous that there are many ways to skin a cat.
From being on these forums i've been almost scared of NOT using tanking materials or aquapanel underneath tiles. Yet, i've used standard 12.5mm plasterboard. Why? because i've spoken to 3 tilers now over the past 2 weeks and all said it's not necessary (in their opinions). I know 2 of them well and they've been at it for at least 10 years. My friend has just done his first aquapanel backing job recently when the leisure centre wetroom he was doing asked for aquapanel. First time in over 10 years.
For all domestic jobs he's never used aquapanel. He tiled my first bathroom straight onto standard wallboard and 5 years later it was still fine. He just uses quality waterproofed/resistent adhesive and grout.

I know there will be some of you who will flame this method, but he's not had any issues. All his work is via recommendation and he's been at it long enough.

To be honest Karis, i don't have the time (or experience) to meticulously plan exactly how to start the tiles so they fall nicely over the valve points. I'll start in the corner of the bath with a full tile and just go along. It doesn't necessarily mean it will be a bad job. I'll certainly measue up and see how many tiles i'll get in a run of the wall and if there looks like a slither will be left, i'll adjust the starting point of a full tile accordingly.

Remember what is probably extremely easy for you, is a lot more daunting for me.....and i usaually learn from my mistakes

 

[Karis]

Tiling isn’t rocket science & well within the scope of most DIY’ers as long as you have a methodical approach, do some research, use the right materials & take your time. But it’s important to be aware that unless you’re using rather expensive epoxy tiling materials, even the very best waterproof adhesive & grout is only waterproof in the sense it won’t disintegrate if it gets wet, it’s not impervious & will still absorb water! This is why it’s important the tile base in wet areas is waterproof, particularly if you have a power shower. The cost difference between plasterboard & a decent cement based backer board is minimal compared to the overall cost of the project & nothing like the cost will be in the event of tile failure; a no brainer really. You should at least be using Moisture Resistant PB (green) but even that will eventually turn to mush when exposed to water.

Opinions do vary & many will stick to what they know, how they were taught & the particular market they are in. You did well to get 5 years out of it, some fail after just 3 years but it’s no time at all really, done properly a refurbished bath/shower room will last at least 10 years & possibly up to 20 or even more. For the record I’ve been at it for just over 7 years now & most of my work involves refurbishing bath/shower rooms. I stick to up-market work & can’t afford unhappy customers or the risk of tile failure which is more common than you might think. I spend a lot of my time ripping out & replacing rotten plasterboard based showers. When they go you wouldn’t believe the mess behind there & if timber studding is involved, it often means replacing that as well. Keeps me busy though but I’ll sign off now & leave you to it.

 

[kjacko]

Lol, oh i can imagine the mess, think i've come across it before.
I'd go as far to say that i'm actually fair adept at most diy stuff i tackle.
My biggest issues is and i guess always has been is that i tend to deliberate too long on the parts of the project that dont require it and rush through the bits that do.
I did check out the difference in price of aquapanel v plasterboard and it was 3 times the price. Bit too pricey for me. Plus i got the tiles and adhesive from Tile Giant, they stopped me from buying the tanking solution, saying "you don't really need it", so they actually saved me money (and lost some in the process), but i admire their honesty

 

[joe-90]

They aren't being honest - they are being stupid. You DO need to tank - but use your brain and fit Aquapanel.

Do it cheap - do it twice.

 

[Watkins]

Do it cheap - do it twice.[/quote]

So so true, couldn't agree more