Some help with electrics paperwork/part P

[LouiseJ]

Hi All,

I've read the wiki on part P and have the actual document (40 pages!) infront of me but wondered if anyone could help me clarify a few points.

We are about to try and tackle some electrical work in the kitchen - putting it all on it's own ring-main and attaching to a new consumer unit.

According to what I understand both of these things are notifiable - but after that is where I get confused.

The person who would be fitting is is JIB registered but not in any sort of scheme so not a 'competent person'.

What I get from the document (sections 1.8 particularly) is that if the fitter issues us with a BSA 7671 installation certificate this complies with Part P?

Presumably we need to notify the building regs people beforehand but will just sending them this certificate make them happy? And then they will send us a completion certificate or...?

Also, further on in the document (1.24 onwards) it seems to say that if someone who isn't qualified to issue a BS 7671 certificate (covering all bases here as I don't know if being JIB registered allows that or not), then you have to notify building control and they become responsible for ensuring the safety, and will come and test 'at their expense, not the householder's expense' - is this true?

The electrician seems to be of the opinion that part P Certification is only really needed if you sell the house and can be done at a later date if need be but presumably to comply with the law we should actually get it done now?

Sorry for all the questions but I just want to get it right!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

According to what I understand both of these things are notifiable - but after that is where I get confused.

Any new circuit is deemed notifiable work, as is the installation of a new consumer unit! They do not need to be notified individually and can be notified together thus only one fee would be required.

What I get from the document (sections 1.8 particularly) is that if the fitter issues us with a BSA 7671 installation certificate this complies with Part P?

An electrical installation certificate would detail
* The client and location of the installation.
* The details of the work that the certificate relates to.
* Who designed, constructed and inspected and tested that work.
* The characteristics of supply
* The particulars of the installation referred to

You will also with this document have at least one schedule of inspection and at least one schedule of tests.
If your electrician can not self cert/notify it will be the building inspector that deems whether it is part p compliant.

Presumably we need to notify the building regs people beforehand but will just sending them this certificate make them happy? And then they will send us a completion certificate or...?

They maybe happy in just seeing the EIC but they may actually want to visit the property on first fix and on comissioning

Also, further on in the document (1.24 onwards) it seems to say that if someone who isn't qualified to issue a BS 7671 certificate (covering all bases here as I don't know if being JIB registered allows that or not), then you have to notify building control and they become responsible for ensuring the safety, and will come and test 'at their expense, not the householder's expense' - is this true?

They will arrange for the installation to be inspected and tested yes, but how far the would legally accept legal responsibility for installation, would be an interesting question to ask building controls. I doubt the would take on that responsibility legally but would confirm compliance to the best of their ability. But if the electrician is JIB registered and knows how to inspect/test and fill in the EIC, they should be no issue with that!

The electrician seems to be of the opinion that part P Certification is only really needed if you sell the house and can be done at a later date if need be but presumably to comply with the law we should actually get it done now?

That sounds like dodgy electrician to me, the cert and schedules go along way to prove the installation is compliant and safe to put into service.
And whether the work is notifiable or not, that is a legal requirement.
Notification must legally be made prior to the work starting if the installer can not self cert/notify, if they can generally the installer has one month from completion to notify but I would expect the EIC on commissioning of the work.
Do not be hoodwinked into believing that a EIC is only required to sell your property, total nonsense. It is required to prove the installation is safe!

 

[LouiseJ]

An electrical installation certificate would detail
* The client and location of the installation.
* The details of the work that the certificate relates to.
* Who designed, constructed and inspected and tested that work.
* The characteristics of supply
* The particulars of the installation referred to

You will also with this document have at least one schedule of inspection and at least one schedule of tests.
If your electrician can not self cert/notify it will be the building inspector that deems whether it is part p compliant.

But if the electrician is JIB registered and knows how to inspect/test and fill in the EIC, they should be no issue with that!

Ok, here is where I'm lost. A JIB registered electrician CAN fill in the certificate himself even if he's not registered with any part P scheme? This includes the required tests and inspection parts you mentioned?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Ok, here is where I'm lost. A JIB registered electrician CAN fill in the certificate himself even if he's not registered with any part P scheme? This includes the required tests and inspection parts you mentioned?

Yes he/she can document his/her observations and results on the EIC and issue it to you, what he/she cannot do is self notify the work, as they are not deemed competent to do so, as they have not been accessed by a scheme provider to prove they have the required knowledge regarding domestic installations and paid the fee the providers demand for proving the electrician knows the requirements of part p, has the appropriate qualification and insurances.

 

[LouiseJ]

Yes he/she can document his/her observations and results on the EIC and issue it to you, what he/she cannot do is self notify the work, as they are not deemed competent to do so, as they have not been accessed by a scheme provider to prove they have the required knowledge regarding domestic installations and paid the fee the providers demand for proving the electrician knows the requirements of part p has the appropriate qualification and insurances.

Sorry, I'm getting confused with the different uses of notify. Is self notify the same as self certify? And different from notifying building control ie a building notice?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Sorry, I'm getting confused with the different uses of notify. Is self notify the same as self certify? And different from notifying building control ie a building notice?

Don't mean to confuse you, I stated this terminologies to try and prevent this!

A self cert electrician would be considered one that can sign off and notify the work themselves. But this is a generic term and I was trying to hopefully make you understand producing a cert is not the same as notifying the job.

So just getting an EIC cert from the electrician does not mean they have notified the work, that is why I used the term self notify!
Sorry if I did not make that clear!

 

[ericmark]

I am sure it is written to confuse.
* A JIB electrician is a competent person even if not a member of a competent persons scheme the two do not relate to each other.
* A circuit has not been defined by Part P. Although BS7671 defines a circuit this would include items feed from a FCU however it would seem Part P does not include these. So it would seem as far as Part P goes it only considered it as new circuit when it comes from the main type tested distribution board (Consumer Unit) sub-mains it would seem are not covered it would need a test court case to clarify and as long as there is nothing wrong with the installation it is unlikely any one would take it to court. In fact the video of the commons group did point out at the moment there is no one appointed to police Part P and only when other things cause it to be brought to court is there any action taken.
* If it is considered as a job which needs registering then it would need doing before work started unless considered as an emergency. Although you should do the registering what my council wants is to confirm the guy doing the job has the skill required and so normally the electrician will put in the application for you.
* In real terms it's money in the councils pocket for no good reason as they don't check after to see if up to standard where the guy doing the work has the qualifications and equipment to test and issue an installation certificate.

So unless the guy doing the work makes a real mess of it then unlikely to be any problems. Where a house is going to be sold there should be a EICR but this does not need to be done by a scheme member anyway.

Of course if the work was planned before 2004 even if never started then it does not need to be registered so to me it's a completely unworkable system.

If you compare it to a motor car it's like having to get a certificate of newness from the manufacturer but once you get that any tom dick or harry can do the MOT. That's how crazy Part P is.

 

[davelx]

So just getting an EIC cert from the electrician does mean they have notified the work, that is why I used the term self notify!
Sorry if I did not make that clear!

"does NOT mean", surely?

 

[flameport]

* A JIB electrician is a competent person

Perhaps.

Membership of that spurious organisation mostly relies on having a certain NVQ, which could be obtained by those who are very far from competent.

 

[flameport]

Presumably we need to notify the building regs people beforehand

That's it.
Either you notify them directly yourself, or you use someone who can notify for you via the scheme they belong to.
What they will want in the way of certificates/testing/plans/etc. varies considerably - you will need to ask them.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

"does NOT mean", surely?

Dually edited, thanks for pointing out this error!

 

[LouiseJ]

Presumably we need to notify the building regs people beforehand

That's it.
Either you notify them directly yourself, or you use someone who can notify for you via the scheme they belong to.
What they will want in the way of certificates/testing/plans/etc. varies considerably - you will need to ask them.

Thanks, I think that's what I'll do on Monday. Been doing a bit of research on the net and it seems different areas vary wildly in their strictness and fees, best to hear it from the horse's mouth!

Thanks all for the input though - the electrician is a friend and mainly works on industrial stuff so I didn't necessarily expect him to be 100% up to date on the latest domestic rules and regulations, so it's good to get some other points of view!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Not all commercial/industrial sparks have an in depth knowledge of the requirements concerning domestic dwellings and the notifying procedures, so best tell him to get his books out and swat up!
Or if he's really struggling, he can post on here and we can confuse the hell out of him!