Some kitchen help pls..

[kaseryn]

Hi all. I've currently having the kitchen refurbeed with fitted units and could do with some pointers to make sure it gets done right. This is the seecond go at it as first install they bodged it by firstly not removing a dead gas pipe and butchering cabinets to go around it, then not leaving enough depth to accomodate built-under appliances. These things are now being corrected by i'm not that confident with their work. I have a built under fridge, freezer and cooker to be fitted and want to be sure it's done right. Off the bat i know nothing about fitting kitchens so could well be worrying about nowt but wld rather be sure than let the work get too far ahead again and find out they fooked it again. So!


No pics as no batteries for camera but pdf of layout is attached



My concern is that the installer hasn't been taking any measurements of the appliances. I assumed that he would have done that and spaced the units/panels etc according to that for flush finishes? Should he not be basically building each appliance in from right to left of that corner (as the washing machine space at left is flexible/less imp?

A half-chat with him (has almost no english but translated thru his mate) seems to indicate he expects small gaps either side.. so i'm not too sure what he means by that, i.e. does he mean room to get the appliances in that wont be seen later.. also there are a couple of doors around that seem to be 600mm dead. As measured my fridge & freezer units are 595mm wide each. Looking at the photo those gaps are 614mm far right.. then 607mm next along. Shouldn't the doors be 620mm or so wide for a neat finish.. i.e. covering the panels to either side of the appliance also? And shouldnt the spaces be 600mm just leaving a little slack?

Please advise so i can make sure things are on track

cheers!



EDIT having spoken with their chargehand, he's telling me the company doesn't make a door larger than 600mm.. can that be true? Surely i would have thought any kitchen furniture made now allows for appliances to be fitted?


Heres the design plan:



http://www.anomander.hestia.feralhosting.com/29 Hows St 1 Plan.pdf

 

[Deleted member 174758]

they bodged it by firstly not removing a dead gas pipe and butchering cabinets to go around it, then not leaving enough depth to accomodate built-under appliances.

Oh, boy! Firstly I've sometimes left old gas pipes in place because there was no way to confirm if they are live or dead - and you aren't allowed to work on gas unless you have the appropriate Gas Safe registration and insurances, so I can understand that to an extent. After all gas can be dangerous stuff in inexperienced hands (and based on what you wrote above would you really want this guy messing with gas pipes?) Even so, it should have been raised with you before cutting-in cabinets around it. A larger firm should tackle the problem for you - after all they generally charge enough to cover this sort of contingency - with a smaller firm it may be a case of negotiation as a gas fitter can easily charge £100 plus for a small job like that (although to be fair about £35 or so is registration fee for the work and you are probably also paying call-out on small tasks)

My concern is that the installer hasn't been taking any measurements of the appliances. I assumed that he would have done that and spaced the units/panels etc according to that for flush finishes? Should he not be basically building each appliance in from right to left of that corner (as the washing machine space at left is flexible/less imp?

Unit heights should be quiet straightforward. You normally set-out any kitchen from either a corner (if the kitchen is L- or U-shaped like yours) or from one end wall on galley kitchens. Most kitchens are designed to have a height to the bottom of the worktop of around 870mm, which will give a finished worktop surface height of 910mm, assuming a normal 40mm thick top. Pretty much every built-in or built-under appliance made will fit under a worktop at that height, although there are exceptions (e.g. IKEA are a bit different). Standard base unit height is circa 720mm with a plinth/leg height of 150mm (IKEA are different, again).

All that boils down to is that I tend to run a datum line at 870mm up off the finished floor level staring at my origin corner as my first action. I then check the height of the datum above the finished floor level at points along the line - if the floor isn't even the datum line may need to be moved upwards or even downwards. If you don't check this you can't guarantee ever getting the appliances in because some of these, such as stand-alone washing machines pretty much need the full 870mm

A half-chat with him (has almost no english but translated thru his mate) seems to indicate he expects small gaps either side.

Surely he's thinking about built-in units, though, not integrated? It might help if you could specify makes and models of what you are installing as there seems to be some discrepancy in understanding and the plan is not forthcoming. Basically an integrated fridge, washer, dryer or oven is generally made to a width of around 595mm - the idea being that it can be slotted-in between two existing cabinets 600mm apart and have a standard-size (595mm wide) door fitted (for fridges and some washers/dryers). The problem comes when you have to install a run of integrated appliances and your designer has opted for vertical decor panels between appliances which will need to be brought forward si that the vertical edges align with the faces of the doors - if not it will look decidedly odd. If you fitted 620mm wide fronts you'd probably find that the doors fouled on the dividers.

BTW I'm not a supporter of Farage and his mottley crew, but if firms want to use cheap labour who don't speak the language they shouldn't be surprised when there are problems because of lack of ability to comprehend. I've worked with enough non-English speakers over the past 7 or 8 years to know that if they don't speakee English I really don't want them near me. (and I'm not that xenophobic because I've worked abroad and I can speak a couple of other languages). TBH I don't think that your fitter has installed this sort of stuff before, and his having to work through a "translator" (who is presumably the labourer and can't do the job himself) isn't helping and underlines what I've already said about linguistic ability

 

[kaseryn]

Thanks for the reply. I'm not a ukip fan either but yes you have to be able to communicate and also, especially if not confident or used to fitting these appliances my iftter needs to be able tor read the instructions, which he wont. Regarding the doors themselves.. my thoughts were that everywhere elese in the kitchen.. ie with the unit doors and drawer covers.. finish lines go to just shy of centre linees for continous lines and non-fouling right? So surely when appliances built in you'd be looking to achieve the same or the lines would clash badly and draw the eye. So far, the side panels around the fridge and freezer spaces look around 15mm so i wld be expecting a door with a width of about 610/612 to look good and not foul anything.. is that not normal? There are thicker side panels eg around where the carcas for the cooker has been built (18mm) but measureing up that seems to be good with centers either side. Even if these side panels were brought forward.. as the interior void ought to be 600 dead (btw yes the fridge and freezer are standard 595mm) you have no cover.. you be trying to exactly line the door edges up with that void.. probably failing and anyway not mathcing lines elsewhere in the kitchen. We had a look at the doors today and they seem to be standard unit doors with a drawer front doweled onto the bottom (with a gap). .. I'm not really having any problems with height its just the actual width fitting of it all that seems to be beyond this crew. Talking to their chargehand today they almost never actually fit appliances.. they just leave 620 gaps for freestanding units. This i should perhaps point out is part of the Better Homes council refurb plan so they aren't used to clients (apparently) seeking the level of finish i'm looking for. Apparently even the wall units are 25mm shallower than standard spec just for these works.

Thoughts pls..

 

[Deleted member 174758]

So far, the side panels around the fridge and freezer spaces look around 15mm so i wld be expecting a door with a width of about 610/612 to look good and not foul anything.. is that not normal?

No. That's not how it's done. Integrated units always use the same width doors as standard cabinets. Unless I'm mistaken your drawing appears to show dividers between units at 15mm thick. These dividers are also used to end the plinths and generally tidy the appearance. That's why they need to extend forwards of the front line of the doors. If not you'll get some ugly gaps between the doors

Even if these side panels were brought forward.. as the interior void ought to be 600 dead (btw yes the fridge and freezer are standard 595mm) you have no cover.. you be trying to exactly line the door edges up with that void.. probably failing and anyway not matching lines elsewhere in the kitchen.

In terms of depth (i.e. front to rear) integrated fridges like this one are often around 550mm so you have a small amount of leeway for pipes and services at the back. Standard base cabinet depth is 570mm and when fitting you allow 20 to 24mm for the doors (this being a door thickness of 18 to 22mm with a 2mm gap between the back face of the door and the front face of the cabinet). I agree that's pretty tight and is why some manufacturers such as Howdens sell 612mm or 625mm wide tops...... In general you can bring the worktop forwards by 5 to 8mm because you are depending on tiling the backsplash and the thickness of the tiles and adhesive covers the gap.

Just to make things worse, your oven will probably need to have two MFC strips applied to the gable ends facing into it, but set 20~25mm back from the front face of the doors. This is to allow the oven to be fixed to the adjoining cabinets

Talking to their chargehand today they almost never actually fit appliances.. they just leave 620 gaps for freestanding units.

And there you have it; "free standing units" which are completely different to integrateds. A freestanding oven or washer often requires a gap in the worktop (certainly in a council house) and is often bang on 600mm wide (older units were often made to Imperial 2ft width in line with EJMA/English Joinery Manufacturers Association standards and 2ft = 610mm) - they add 20mm to give you some wiggle room to get appliances in or out, especially if it's an old non-metric washer or cooker, although there can't be many of them left these days. Integrated units are specifically designed to fit into the same width and depth slot as a standard base cabinet. Exactly. And where they take a door panel it must therefore be the same width as a standard cabinet. So stop looking for 20mm wider ones because you just won't find them other than bespoke made, because they aren't necessary

Ii should perhaps point out is part of the Better Homes council refurb plan so they aren't used to clients (apparently) seeking the level of finish i'm looking for. Apparently even the wall units are 25mm shallower than standard spec just for these works.

That's part of the issue, then. Council units are often contract items made specifically for the refits. They don't do mason's mitre joints. They don't do appliances other than free-standing ones, as you've found out. The average fit from my own experience was normally 1 or 2 days - achievable because the fits are so simple. I can see why you've got problems. These guys aren't kitchen fitters in the proper sense

I will try to put together a Sketch-Up drawing to illustrate what I'm trying to say this evening, if you can wait that long (don't have S-U on my laptop)

 

[kaseryn]

Thanks again for the fulsome reply Ok then.. so i'm assuming wrong in how integrated doors should fit. With all you've said.. i need the side panels on the outside of the fridge and freezer to be brought forward the thickness of the door and also the dividing panel.. so that the doors when attached will close flush of face. This being the case then i imagine those voids and the appliance placement wants to be pretty bang on the 600 and centered leaving a couple mm all around to not snag and look reasonable? Now that everything has been shunted forward depth isn't proving an issue. I have until tomorrow morning when everyone will be back to see what's going to happen from here on.. as you these guys aren't really kitchen fitters as such and i have to wonder how they'd manage with the oven and hob too...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I'll post a shaded projection view which shows what I'm talking about. If you wanted to load S-U on your computer I'll happily send you the drawing which you can then view, rotate and zoom in on. Been sitting here waiting on a delivery to install which won't be here until early in the morning, so I've had time to load S-U on this biscuit tin laptop and start the drawing off

Edit: Not quite done, but here it is

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• Deleted member 174758
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• Deleted member 174758
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Hopefully you can see why I feel that the dividers should be pulled forward. The corner unit I've had to guess at a bit and the washer I've shown as an over sized box, but hey ho. What it doesn't show is the oven. Most ovens screw into the cabinets either side and many I've fitted have required two vertical; strips of pre-edged MFC to be fitted to the cabinets to take the screws (the main body of the oven being about 560mm wide to accommodate this, the front being effectively a "flange"). they also require a couple of angle brackets to carry the weight as they don't come with feet and once again those feet are screwed into the sides of the adjacent base cabinets (or in your case divider to the right, cabinet to the left). If they aren't fitting the appliances get them to leave you 3 lengths of plinth, cut to size, because you'll need those to cover the plinth area of the integrateds

 

[kaseryn]

With what you've told me about the appliance door covers not being larger than the 600 of the opening i can comletely see why it would help to have the dividers brought forward. I'm just a bit surprised since it seems less tidy or forgiving than the way drawers and cupboards are finished where the exterior door is larger and therefore overlapping of the internal void. I'll pick some batteries up a little later and post some pictures of the kitchen and area's in question. Having opened up the oven packagin and manual i see too now that the hole they've left for it is too short vertically. I do have the choice of having them leave materials and finshing things of myself which may be preferable although i wouldnt want to be messing about with the gas supply and electrics for hob/oven...

 

[kaseryn]

Right.. installed that SketchUp program.. and here are some photos of current state:

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Will be out now till 8 or so..


cheers!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Basically what they've done doesn't look too bad. The boxing out of the service pipes on the back wall and how they've brought the tiling out to cover the fact is a bit on the chunky side, but if it works...... I'd sort of assumed that your oven would be biggish - they've assumed that it will be smallish and have installed a base unit to take something like a 595mm high built-in single oven rather than a 720mm built-under oven - which TBH is what I'd assumed you were going to install. BTW, which is it? If your oven is a built-under then that unit will need to come out and you'll need to install two angle plates to carry it together with the MFC stops to fix the oven in place. From your initial post I expected it to be way worse

 

[foxhole]

Looks like the boxing under sink will prevent standard washing machine from fitting.?
Electrical installation [sockets etc] looks a bit of a pigs ear.
Spacing for built in fridge or freezer should be 600mm, the door being 596mm leaving a small gap so they don't bind, you seem to have spacing for free standing units, I would not start a kitchen without the appliance to hand or at least the installation info.
Maybe things got lost in translation.
There are built in/built under appliances and semi or fully intergrated appliances, as well as free standing appliances, really need to know before installation of units.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Looks like the boxing under sink will prevent standard washing machine from fitting.?

Possibly. The OP will need to check, although if you look at the worktops they have pulled the units forward and tiled over the gap (on a boxing?). The other thing I noticed is that they've blocked-off the gaps at the rear by addind extra pieces of material - that may make things too narrow at the back as well for a freestanding washer

 

[kaseryn]

Hi all and thanks again for the contributions. The washing machine fits fine now that the gas pipe is out. That had previously been transecting the cabinets somewhere not very far back of the midway point and they had tried to talk me into leaving it. Also.. the boxout on top of the worktops is new. They first installd everything tight to the wall and ofc nothing would fit depthwise. So!

The oven is single oven built under (right?) in that it's under the worktop witth a gas hob built into worktop above.. and the oven unit is made to sit on a shelf in the carcass. Instructions call for a min 590mm clearance vertically to u/s of worktop and 560 horizontally. Horizontal as it sits is fine but they need to drop the shelf a bit to get that vertical clearance. Soooo.. the doors on the fridge and freezer to the right. Far right space as i say is currently 614mm and next along is 607. Given the way i now know those doors will be fitting wldnt it be best to have those tight to a good 600mm square space.. leaving just a couple mill all around if they're well fitted? As for bringing the dividers forward.. it'd be tight but doable. I was thinking the one between the oven and fridge might foul the flange on oven face but it looks like you'd be a couple mill clear. As long as its neat and square i suppose i wouldnt be too bothered even if they left them back that 15mm. Regarding the covering up of gaps at the back. i dont really see the point. It's not a gap that will ever be seen and all it does (for instance on the washing machine gap) is force the unit from the edge. As far as that goes anyway i guess a washing machine wants a bit of space around for the inevitable movement in operation? As things stand, when everyone rocks up tomorrow i'll be looking for the following:

An understanding either way of competence to fit all the appliances properly and to regs.. with the right fittings etc

dividers/units to be moved up for tight 600mm fittings as installed



As far as i can see from the instructions and what's incuded with packaging this oven doesnt have any extra brackets.. requirements are specified for clearances and ventilation.. other than that there are 4 screws to fix through the front face to the carcas. There are the units i have:


http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4871651.htm

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4871675.htm

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/2753142.htm


That's nearly £700 spent and the first time since being build these flats have been refurbed so you can appreciate i want to gets things halfway decent while i can..[/url]

 

[kaseryn]

Also.. quick q. The gasket that comes with the cold units.. exactly how/where is that placed? Just seems to be enough for one side and i can't quite make out from the instructions how to place it.. it seems to lap around a corner somewhere.. is it just to cushion where the hinge side is screwed down? thanks!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I've taken a quick look at your appliances. The fridge and freezer just stand on the floor and are designed to fit into a gap exactly 600mm wide. The oven description states

Oven size H59.7, W59.5, D54cm
Oven to fit aperture size H58, W56, D55cm

So I'd expect it to come with two long angle plates to carry it. It will also need a filler panel below it 595 wide x 140 high - that is a standard size for a drawe front. Installation set-up is something like this with a couple of pieces of something like 2 x 1 softwood or angle brackets to hold the filler panel (drawer front):

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• Deleted member 174758
• 23 Dec 2014
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In addition the fitter may need to fix a couple of pieces of 15mm edged MFC fillets onto the sides of the opening - it depends on the oven. Some ovens take four or even six screws through a flange plate around the front (for an oven with a black interior I use black drywall or black carcass screws if there are no screws with the oven) and it's that type which requires the two fillets (not universal, I'm afraid - some ovens are full width and screw into the sides of the gap meaning that it has to be dead on 600mm)

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• Deleted member 174758
• 23 Dec 2014
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[kaseryn]

Hi again. Still waiting for everyone to turn up! I had a good look at all the appliances and the manuals last night and basically i have to say the fitter seems to be going about things the right way. Offered up the cooker and it's very very close to spot on. The manual doesn't call for fixing plates and none are included. In fact the manual shows it sitting on a support shelf just as shwon in the photos i attached. The only fixing as i say seems to be the four screws through the front, which once it's on a shelf is i guess plenty. I'd still like him to tighten the gaps up.. i see the options for door adjustment after fitting are very good so 5mm all around should be plenty for a nice neat finish. Gaps round the w/m will be a bit bigger than id like at 65mm overall but not life and death stuff. Just need to keep on him to line the hob/cooker and units above up!