Spur from spur

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Hi all

I have a radial circuit protected by a 15A RCD at the consumer box for the immersion heater. There is a spur with a 3A FCU leading from it to the downstairs boiler and another one for the shower pump. Is this acceptable? I want to run another spur/socket from the radial circuit; is this acceptable? I have read so many times that you cant run a spur from a spur. But why? What is the reason for this? It seems to me that it should be ok if you dont overload the wire and other components. Is this correct and is it just part of the regulations?

Any comments would be gratefully received.

Cheers
M
 
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A spur run in 2.5mm TE could handle about 24 amps (ish), so having a single socket spur is fine.

A spur off a spur run in 2.5 TE means that the cable could be asked to handle 13 amps at each socket, so 2 single sockets would mean 26 amps and 2 x double sockets 52 amps.

Since you cannot predict what would be plugged in to a socket an overload situation is possible.


You can have as many spurs off a 13 amp fused spur because everything beyond that spur is limited to the fuse value in the f/spur unit- so no over load can happen.

On a 16 amp radial the circuit is limited to 16 amps, provided the cables are 2.5mm TE (NOT 1.5mm TE) there would not be an overload situation
 
I have a radial circuit protected by a 15A RCD at the consumer box for the immersion heater.
Firstly you seem to be confusing MCBs and RCBs. A RCD provides protection against faults to earth even very small ones but won't protect against overloads or other faults from live to neutral. A MCB provides overcurrent/short circuit protection. I'm guessing what you reffer to as a "15A RCD" is actually a MCB (post pics if you are still unsure and want a postitive identification). There is also a device called a RCBO that combines the functions of a MCB and a RCD.

There is a spur with a 3A FCU leading from it to the downstairs boiler and another one for the shower pump. Is this acceptable?
Afaict the OSG recommends that immersion heaters are on their own circuit but I don't belive there is a reg that actually requires this (please correct me if i'm wrong). IMO what you have is ok in that regard.

I want to run another spur/socket from the radial circuit; is this acceptable?
There are a couple of potential problems with adding a socket to this circuit.

The first is you need to consider the overall loading on the circuit. a 3KW immersion heater plus a couple of small loads will basically have the circuit maxed out. So by adding another socket you create a significant chance of overloading. While MCBs will protect against overloading to some extent it's still something you should avoid happening in the first place whereever possible. Assuming the cable is 2.5mm, not excessively long and kept away from thermal insulation you can probablly increase the MCB to 20A but even then it could still be overloaded if someone plugs an electric heater into the new socket.

The second is RCD protection. The 17th edition requires RCD protection for most sockets and for most concealed cables (both of these rules have exceptions but I don't think they are particually relavent here). How to apply this to existing installations that were installed to the 16th edition or before is somewhat debatable but the general consensus seems to be that any new wiring and accessories should be complient with the 17th edition and any existing wiring should be no less compliant with it than they were before. It is likely that your immersion circuit is not RCD protected (post pictures of your consumer unit and we can probablly work it out).

I have read so many times that you cant run a spur from a spur.
This statement is true but a little misleading. The thing is people say you can't spur from a spur but fail to clearly define what a spur actually is.

Afaict up to and including the 16th edition the term spur was only defined in the context of a ring circuit. In a ring the cable is rated lower than the breaker but this is considered ok as the current has two routes to get back to the origin of the circuit. In a spur there is only one route so if too much was placed on one spur the spur cable could be overloaded without tripping any breakers. Older versions of the regs used to allow one single or two double sockets on a spur but two singles was dissalowed (not sure which edition dissallowed it) because people were replacing single sockets with doubles without realising they were dealing with a spur.

The 17th edition also defines spurs in the context of radials but it only counts as a spur if it is of a reduced current carrying capacity compared to the main cable of the radial circuit.

In either cable a branch from a radial circuit in cable that is rated to take the full current of the circuit is NOT a spur.
 
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Spur. A branch from a ring or radial final circuit.
Circuit. An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

So where a fused connection unit is used the cable from this is a radial not a spur as it is a new circuit since it has it's own overcurrent protective device.

The spur is where the cable is capable of being overloaded if it were not for the protective device at it's end. i.e. FCU or Plug with fuse in plug.

Regulation 433.2.2 limits the spur to 3 meters as the cable is not protected.

314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(i) avoid hazards and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault.

This is the bit that says you should not fit 10 sockets to the immersion heater supply. Also the appendix says you should comply with general ring and radial rules by "(iii) connecting cookers, ovens and hobs with a rated power exceeding 2 kW on their own dedicated radial circuit".

Clearly as one adds more and more to a radial designed for a immersion heater it can no longer be considered a "dedicated radial circuit" in fact once you add one extra item to it then no longer a "dedicated radial circuit".

However that does not produce danger it just increases the inconvenience in the event of a fault.

So risk assessment what are the risks? Worse case overload causes the overload device to open and there is therefore no heat in the house so the pipes freeze and burst then the water brings down the ceiling. Is this likely? I would say no as one would reset the overload well before the damage happens.

Would I do it? Unlikely but then I am an electrician so I would use one of the ring mains.
 
Hi all

Just a question about fitting a DP switch for a hob and oven.

When we moved into our house, we kocked a wall down in which was part of the cooker circuit attached to a cooker connection unit. The cable has now been shortened and resides between the floorboards! Is this acceptable - its not attached to anythig, it just sits inbetween the boards.

If this isn't correct, what needs to be done to correct it. Also, A bloke fitted the cooker; it is a hob and an oven. The cooker circuit is a 10mm TE cable, it goes to the connection unit and from this unit comes 2 x 2.5TE cable to the oven and hob. Again, is this ok?

One other question. As the bloke connected these to cables straight to the cooker, there isnt a switch above the worktop to isolate the oven and hob. Would it be acceptable to fit 2 45amp DP switches for each appliance (oven & hob) above the worktop?

Any comments would be gratefully be received.

Cheers
M
 

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