Stopping nuisance RCD trips - hob has 6.7mA leakage, normal?

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My house was built in 2018 and has a CU with 2x RCDs. The problem is "RCD1" almost always trips when the power comes back on after a power-cut (which causes problems with the fridge!), and sometimes just trips by itself when doing something like turning on the kettle. I'm talking like 4 or 5 times a year, so not a massive issue, but could ruin the fridge/freezer contents if we were away and it happened.

I decided to do some measurements, so I put a current clamp on the main Earth wire out of the CU and switched through the circuits one at a time, results below.

Is the 6.7mA leakage for the hob alone (induction hob) normal? And if yes, would it be worth asking an Electrician to swap the Hob onto the other RCD? Or should I just bite the bullet and ask to change everything to RCBOs? How much is that likely to cost in parts and labour?

RCD1: (total 17.6 mA, spec 80A/30mA)
- Hob (32A) 6.7mA
- Kitchen sockets (32A) 5.8mA (see below for breakdown)
- Garage (32A) 1.7mA
- Left oven (20A) 1.6mA
- Lights gnd + smoke alarms (6A) 1.5mA
- Lights 2nd floor (6A) 0.3mA

RCD2: (total 7.7 mA, spec 80A/30mA)
- Sockets (32A) 3.0mA
- Sockets (32A) 1.7mA
- Microwave (20A) 1.4mA
- Lights 1st floor (6A) 0.7mA
- Right oven (20A) 0.6mA
- Front gates (16A) 0.3mA

Kitchen socket circuit:
- Dishwasher 2.0mA
- w/machine 1.3mA
- Alarm+modem,router etc 0.9mA
- Boiler + pump 0.7mA
- Fridge freezer 0.2mA
- Wine cooler 0.2mA
- several smaller things <0.2mA
 
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Although the RCDs are 30mA, that means they must trip at a maximum of 30mA and must not trip below half that, i.e. 15mA.

Most usually trip around 27mA so perhaps yours is a bit over-sensitive, OR
not all earth leakage might be flowing through the Earth wire so you should really measure with the meter clamp around the Line and Neutral conductors - either of the main supply or of the circuits.

6.7mA on the hob and 5.8mA on the socket circuit is more than should be expected so without these it obviously would be a lot better.

It depends on the make of your consumer unit but better brand RCBOs are around £25 each.
 
The limits are 3.5 mA before special earthing arrangements, and 9 mA for a 30 mA RCD under no fault conditions. The problem is neutral to earth on any item can result in tripping when another item is used, my clamp-on will not measure 1 mA so never measured items to compare, I had problems in the last house which did cost me a freezer or more of food, so this house has all RCBO, I did a full consumer unit swap, including fitting a surge protection device and an external isolator, seem to remember parts cost around £300 but no fitting cost my son did it for me, make used was fuse box, and I made an error, looked at boxes for RCBO's and it said type B, bit surprised type A would have been good enough, but after fitting realised actually type AC curve B. To swap 14 RCBO's is rather expensive so stayed as type AC.

The problem is fuse box may be cheap, but Wylex is expensive, so £18.60 to £26.50 mounts up with 12 RCBO's with type AC fusebox down to £12.12 each at that price why does anyone fit MCB's?

Personally I am a cheap skate, and I would swap RCD 1 for an isolator and fit 6 RCBO's if they will fit, but it is down to cost, same site some Hager at £35.38, and also the SPD also has a huge price difference. So depending on make it can work out cheaper with a CU change to swapping the MCB to RCBO.

If your lucky enough to have a high integrity CU then simply move the hob to a RCBO. I did look at auto resetting RCD's which were allowed under 17th Edition but seems under 18th Edition not permitted for domestic. I also looked at EATON X-Pole which trip at 90-100% not 50-100% and have a indicator to show when near the limit. But the price means may as well fit RCBO's.

As said down to price, and since we don't know CU make it is hard to say which is best route.
 
I put a current clamp on the main Earth wire out of the CU
That's not an ideal method, as there may be other current flowing there, likewise some leakage from appliances may not flow via that particular conductor.
Clamp around the L&N wires for each circuit is a better way, but that does require having the consumer unit open with the power connected which is certainly not something people should be doing without knowing exactly what the risks are.
Switching off the whole installation at the main switch and then using the current clamp on the main earth and the bonding to gas / water / other may reveal something.

6.7mA for a single appliance seems excessive, although it depends on how it was designed.
The rest isn't unexpected.

With a max allowed of 9mA, RCD1 is already over the limit even without the hob. RCD2 very close.
Moving the hob to the other RCD will just move the tripping problem.
A 30mA RCD trips between 15mA and 30mA, and when tested it's very common to find they trip in the 20-25mA range.

A good example of why dual RCD affairs are unsuitable for modern equipment.

New consumer unit with all RCBOs is the solution. £600-£1000 would be a typical price range for a quality manufacturer including surge protection.
 
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Thanks for all the replies everyone, most helpful.

Unfortunately the builder won't do anything about it as it's past the 2 year warranty period, the only things covered after 2 years are structural things. Or so they told me, I can't find anything definite one way or the other about whether the electrical installation is covered after 2 years or not. The NHBC stuff just says that the electrical installation should comply with BS 7671, which isn't much help if you don't have a copy.

Is there somewhere that references the "max allowed of 9mA", as it would appear the first RCD is way over this. Is this something the electrical installer should have checked/measured before signing it off?

Regarding the measurement method, I did try to clamp around the L+N tails but they only just about fit into my clamp, and it seemed to give wildly variable results depending on how I rotated the clamp around. So the best I could do was clip onto the main earth wire out of the CU, at least the results were repeatable, just maybe not as accurate as I understand the true leakage value might be higher.

If I can get some more evidence about this 9mA I'll try again with the housebuilder, but I don't expect much to be honest as I don't think it's covered and they'll just blame it on "expected wear and tear", or they'll get their "engineer" to come out and say it's fine. To give you an idea how stupid they are, they refused to replace a heated towel-rail in the bathroom that started to rust within 2 years, they told me I shouldn't be putting wet towels on it!

As to paying for upgrades myself, I don't think the rarity of the annoyance warrants spending more than a hundred quid or so. At least now I know what the big leakage circuits are so can turn them off if we go away, that should reduce the chance of any nuisance trips turning off the fridge freezer.
 
Re compliance with BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).
The installation will have been tested and certified to the standards set out in BS7671 and a certificate will have been issued. You will (must) have a copy. The certificate only deals with the FIXED WIRING. It does not include attachments, appliances etc. That will be outside the scope of the house infrastructure and also of the NHBC guarantees.

Unfortunately, if you believe that the hob is faulty then your redress is with the hob manufacturer/supplier. If outside warranty then replacement is the remedy.
 
Well I'm not sure if 6.7mA leakage on the hob is a fault or not, that was one of my reasons to come here to see if that was normal or not.

I bought the house with the kitchen and fixed appliances (ovens, microwave, hob, dishwasher, boiler etc) so it seems more like a poor design by the developer, just annoyed I didn't investigate this properly within the 2 years. Even if I just add up the fixed appliances that came with the house there is over 11mA leakage on RCD1.

Edit: Will get a pic of the CU when I'm at home this evening.
 
How are you measuring the hob leakage....with all the elements on?
What figures do you get with each hotplate?
 
With RCD's in general we work with 1/3rds, since the RCD should trip full to half using third as limit gives a little leeway. But there is no rule to say that, it is the same for length of ring final, we have a calculation which gives 106 meters, but nothing to say we must follow it.

What the regulation says is:-
314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(i) avoid hazards and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault
(ii) facilitate safe inspection, testing and maintenance (see also Section 537)
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit
(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation
(v) mitigate the effects of electromagnetic interferences (EMI)
(vi) prevent the indirect energizing of a circuit intended to be isolated.

But there is nothing which says how many or how big circuits should be. Above is BS 7671:2008 or 17th Edition which would have been likely the current one when home was designed, build date does not matter, it is design date, which is likely earlier than build date.

As to a guarantee, it would depend on the hob, and what is considered the leakage under normal operation. My PAT testing machine measures the earth leakage and I have had new equipment with radio interference suppression systems which have caused high earth leakage.

543.7.1.1 Equipment having a protective conductor current exceeding 3.5 mA but not exceeding 10 mA, shall be either permanently connected to the fixed wiring of the installation without the use of a plug and socket-outlet or connected by means of a plug and socket-outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2.

Does not really help as likely the hob is permanently connected to the fixed wiring of the installation.

Some consumer units are what is called high integrity, not a clue why called that, but what it means is it has three neutral bars, often it has two slots for non protected by RCD so a RCBO can be fitted in that slot, moving the cooker to a RCBO would likely remove the problem. As well as current rating the RCBO has two other things to think about, one is the type, we have type A and type AC, it is claimed type AC can be frozen but DC current, and type A will work with up to 6 mA, however it depends on what paper you read, this report seems to show not as bad as first made out. The other is single or double pole switching, with an earth rod (TT) we really need double pole switching, but in the main single pole is used.

As said cost of RCBO is between £12.12 and £35.38 depending on make and type, plus fitting, cost of freezer full of food must be more than cost of having a RCBO fitted if the board will take it.

Consumer units are type tested distribution units, to retain the type testing you can only do what the manufacturer permits, which means using their products, and there is good reason, as often the bus bar to din rail distance is not uniform across different manufacturers, so it can cause strain on the components if you mix and match. However using some common sense often we can use cheaper components or better components, and re-configure most CU's to get extra ways or fit RCBO's. So I am sure an electrician could move either sockets (which supplies freezer) or hob to a RCBO and remove the problem without fitting a whole unit. But he also can likely suck through teeth and say jobs worth.

Testing RCD's is some thing which there is some argument over, they should hold at ½ rating and trip at full, but we were always told to remove all load for testing, but the "problem with DC" if it is a problem, means many feel the test should be done when under load, then if there is a problem with DC it will be highlighted, also the question is how do you remove load? I have found the main reason for a new RCD failing is strain on the terminals, so they should be tested after all cables and bus bars are terminated, but I have also had a RCD pass all tests, and yet trip in use, swapping the RCD stopped tripping and yet still passed all tests. I can only guess why, my guess is spikes on the circuits from some device.

The same with my old house, every so often we would have a series of trips, testing showed no faults, then it would not trip for a few years, all efforts to find out why failed, also resetting one RCD would often cause other one to trip, and I could not reset RCD with MCB's on, but switch off then switch on one at a time and no trip, seems the sudden load affected them, they were old fitted around 1992 so did not have the anti-trip technology found in modern RCD's. And this is a point not all RCD's are made equal.

It was due to the problems in last house why I went for all RCBO in this house, plus a problem with dividing into circuits, the idea is, although not laid out as a rule, is if you get a shock due to some fault, which trips the RCD your not also put into darkness. So the lights and sockets in any one room are not supplied from same RCD, also to remove the need under fault conditions to have to run extension leads up or down stairs, and also to reduce the earth loop impedance it is better to split house ring finals side to side rather than up/down, however this is not so easy with lighting circuits, so pre the RCD it was common to spilt home side to side with sockets and up/down with lights, this means with two RCD's you can't arrange it so if you have a fault on sockets it will not plunge one into darkness. But with caravans for example we have 12 volt lighting, so they have two RCD's in series, and if any one trips no 230 volt electric. Same with narrow boats. And BS 7671 is written for all, not just houses, so it has to allow for caravans and narrow boats so can be no rule as to how many RCD's are used.

Likely you will find some one does not agree with what I have said, and this is good, as it points out people can interpret what BS 7671 says in different ways, likely into 50 shades of grey.
 
Unfortunately, if you believe that the hob is faulty then your redress is with the hob manufacturer/supplier. If outside warranty then replacement is the remedy.
Not true. The warranty is in addition to your legal rights which are covered by the Consumer Rights Act. That says goods must be of merchantable quality, fit for purpose and last a reasonable time. In England that is six years, five in Scotland.
 
How are you measuring the hob leakage....with all the elements on?
What figures do you get with each hotplate?
This was with all elements off - I literally just turned on the hob circuit at the CU by itself and jotted down what happened to the earth conductor current at the CU. Googling some more it seems someone else has got very similar readings, and for hobs over 6kW (mine is rated at 7.4kW) it seems the limit is 15mA. So seems no fault with the hob.

Thanks for the detailed reply ericmark - seems fruitless to try and argue with the house developer about this then given the interpretations possible. I'll get a photo up of my CU later to see what's possible.
 
so it seems more like a poor design by the developer,
Unlikely there was any design.
The same cheapo tat they have been using for years thrown in at the lowest possible price by mostly unskilled labour is the usual arrangement with new builds.
 

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