street lights and EV charging points

[Taylortwocities]

You are not allowed an EV charge point on a looped supply…

 

[ericmark]

You are not allowed an EV charge point on a looped supply…

That is a good point, however define looped supply, I think many supplies go in a loop so and section in the loop can be isolated without interrupting supply, also some times called a ring main, but not a ring final that is very different.

I know the looped supply is thought of being where a single cable supplies two properties, which does not seem to follow what my English considers as a loop. I would have called that a radial.

A 'looped service' is where two properties share a single electricity service cable from the main network. These are typically found in semi-detached or terraced houses. The electricity cables enters the first house, usually underground from the mains in the footpath or road outside.

Form (something) into a loop or loops; encircle.
"she looped her arms around his neck"

so it seems not English, however the main question is why you can't have an EV charging point when a single service cable is shared? One would think down to size of cable, but nothing seems to say not permitted with 16 mm² or 25 mm² or any other size of supply cable.

But most people with an EV travel quite a lot of miles, it would not pay if only nipping to shops and back,

The average capacity is around 40kWh, but some cars now have up to a 100 kWh capacity.

and most domestic charge points are 7 kW so with no losses around 6 to 14 hours to charge the battery. The Renault Kangoo Phase 1 + 2 EV van only charges at 3.5 kW and the battery is 22 kWh battery so just over 6 hours to fully charge.

Clearly 3.5 kW and 7 kW are very different, but the Phase 2 had a type 2 charge port even if it could only charge at 3.5 kW so I suppose charge points must be able to supply 7 kW even if the vehicle only uses 3.5 kW unless there is some type of hand shaking which can be relied on to limit the charge rate, it seems there is something in the cable to limit charge rate, as this cable states Charging options: 8A, 10A, 13A, 16A, 20A, 32A So it seems there is some form of hand shaking.

Which raises the question if the charge rate can be set lower than 32 amp, why can't one charge an EV from a house with a looped supply even if it charges at a lower rate?

 

[JohnW2]

That is a good point, however define looped supply, I think many supplies go in a loop so and section in the loop can be isolated without interrupting supply, also some times called a ring main, but not a ring final that is very different. .... I know the looped supply is thought of being where a single cable supplies two properties, which does not seem to follow what my English considers as a loop. I would have called that a radial.

I think you are trying to be too 'clever' (or something ). As you imply, I think we all know what sort of 'looped supply' it is that cannot supply an EV charger, regardless of what you may think about the English.

In fact, even in other contexts, 'looping' sometimes refers to "daisy-chaining' things without the 'end' ever getting anywhere near the 'start' (which would be needed to creature a true 'loop').

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

if the charge rate can be set lower than 32 amp, why can't one charge an EV from a house with a looped supply even if it charges at a lower rate?

It's totally possible, EV charge points can be set as low as 6 amps.
However homeowners and the like would inevitably change the settings to something else such as the maximum available, the result being overloaded cables.
Simpler just to ban them on looped supplies.

 

[Taylortwocities]

It's totally possible, EV charge points can be set as low as 6 amps.
However homeowners and the like would inevitably change the settings to something else such as the maximum available, the result being overloaded cables.
Simpler just to ban them on looped supplies.

Yes. My looped supply comment was directed at the use of street lighting as possible charge points. I expect that the vision might be for a charge point from every lamp post, but that isnt going to be practical with the existing cabling being several lamp posts on a single radial circuit. Truly a looped supply!

 

[ericmark]

I know in the past I have seen a group of lights switch on together, I wonder if only one in the group has a 24/7 live supply and others only made live when that one switches?

 

[bernardgreen]

a group of lights switch on together

The reason lamps along a street are group switched is to avoid the situation where at dusk some lights are lit and others are not lit. Drivers going into and out of pools of light as they drove along the street was considered to be a hazard to visibility.

In the dark ages a sub-main ( not a DNO cable ) could be installed along the street with one "master" lamp fitted with a timer and/or dusk sensor and supplied by the DNO. This master lamp then controlled power to the sub-main. Installing a sub main could be much cheaper than fitting every lamp with a timer/dusk sensor.

Another way to group switch lamps is for the "master" lamp ( with timer and/or dusk sensor ) to inject a carrier frequency onto the DNO cables to control the group.

Now modern Wireless linking and other "hi tech" solutions are used.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I know in the past I have seen a group of lights switch on together, I wonder if only one in the group has a 24/7 live supply and others only made live when that one switches?

To reduce the cost, they began switching some local main road lights off, after 11am. I really cannot see them going around and adjusting the timers on every single light, rather it will be one master light, feeding lots of other lights. Likewise, the street lighting in my road comes on in batches of several lights.

Back in the day, gas lights used to have a time-clock in every light, to mechanically turn the gas on.

 

[SUNRAY]

Back in the day, gas lights used to have a time-clock in every light, to mechanically turn the gas on.

Oh dear...

back in the day a man walked along the road with a ladder, rested it against the cross arms on the lamp post and climb.

I was fascinated watching him, then one day i was sat in my bedroom watching and the lights came on all by themselves but they were those new fangled elektwikkery things.
I was just a fascinated to to see the light flicker a couple of time pink then gradually come up a d slowly turn to green then white.

 

[SUNRAY]

This View attachment 279697 is typical in Mid Wales, parking is already a problem, and there are moves to paint yellow lines, hard enough finding space for the waste collection bins, EV cars are a non starter.

Well they won't start if you can't charge then

 

[SUNRAY]

You are not allowed an EV charge point on a looped supply…

People keep making this statement however we have several houses with charge points in our street and the 2 people I've spoken to say nothing has been done to de loop.

This is on a block of 3 flats, post #11

Self Install Ev Charger

Evening all, I am looking to install a 7kw Ev charger and just wanted to know if this is possible with the current setup I have. The house is just over three years old and the garage cu currently has the usual 2 rcd 1 16a and 1 6a. The cable feeding this is a 6mm 3 core cable which I believe...

www.diynot.com

And that has 3 charge points.

 

[Taylortwocities]

People keep making this statement however we have several houses with charge points in our street and the 2 people I've spoken to say nothing has been done to de loop.

This is on a block of 3 flats, post #11

Self Install Ev Charger

Evening all, I am looking to install a 7kw Ev charger and just wanted to know if this is possible with the current setup I have. The house is just over three years old and the garage cu currently has the usual 2 rcd 1 16a and 1 6a. The cable feeding this is a 6mm 3 core cable which I believe...

www.diynot.com

And that has 3 charge points.

Ok. “Not Allowed” is probably too broad.
For an EV point there is a supply connection flowchart to follow.

https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/resource-library/low-carbon-technologies-combined-installation-process-flow-chart.pdf

In most of the early steps (one of which includes checking for a looped supply) the installer must send an APPLICATION TO CONNECT to the DNO who will make a decision if the existing supply is adequate, or if a service enhancement is necessary. In fact, this form seems to be needed for any EV installation.

 

[ericmark]

I can see in flat areas where the roads as straight the position of the street lamp could be used as a charging point, but here the area is not flat, so the streets wind up the hills to allow a reasonable gradient, and street lamps are positioned on the bends to light as much area of path and road as they can, so to park at a street lamp is often dangerous, as it is people have utilised their garages for other things, be it a room or simply storage, and around here the drives are so steep, which is likely why garages not used as would likely not be able to safely use in the winter, even the drive ways are no longer usable for parking.

Walking to the post box, most of the way I have to walk on the road, as cars are on the walkway, road too narrow for cars to pass each other even when walkway used, and on the estate speed is low, so no one is really worried about the parked cars, but clearly no authority could condone the parking of the cars on the walkway.

So to be able to charge cars, we would need some official car park, and although walking 500 yards on the flat is OK, on these hills no one wants to carry their shopping that sort of distance from the car.

There is land which could be used for car parking, but at what cost? Looking at health and safety the best place to park a car to be charged is where no one walks, other than to and from the car, but that means long supply cables, so charging points tend to be places near the buildings.

However I have been surprised to see unused charging points, where EV was a company car I assume, and job change has resulted in no longer using electric. Also know there have been problems with mobility cars, where the user has be left stranded, being unable to find a EV charging point they can use. So they have got rid of the EV.

 

[Tigercubrider]

Kind of on topic,

Some councils are talking about introducing /reintroducing the type of channel that used to be used to guide rain water from house drain pipes across a pavement to th road gutter. These have a slot in top

This would allow a home owner who can road park outside their home to safely run a cable from their land across the pavement and remove trip risks.

Seems a sensible and relatively cheap method to me? Several people around my area seem to run a domestic looking cable to their cars onto their drives without a major upgrade. This would expand the charging possibility to those who don’t have off road parking.

 

[JohnW2]

Ok. “Not Allowed” is probably too broad. .... For an EV point there is a supply connection flowchart to follow.

Thanks. As you will be aware, all it says about looped supplies is (with my highlighting)...

Some DNO cut-outs have more than one DNO service cable terminated in them. This indicates the presence of a Looped Service whereby one or more premises are connected via the cut-out. This may impact the adequacy of the DNO service equipment. Looped Services can be found in any premises but are often found in housing estates built in the 1970s & 1980s, in rural areas and in terraced housing.

Reading the rest of the notes, it sounds as if their greatest concerns are about supplies (DNO fuses) less than 60A. What size fuses does one currently see with looped supplies?

There is also the question of "when is a looped supply a looped supply?". I have an (overhead) supply with 3 x 60A fuses (was 3 x 80A until the last meter change, when the guy said "I didn't need that much" and changed the fuses to 60A!). One of the phases is 'looped' to what is now the 'next door house' However, until 1950 that was part of what is now my house, so that pre-meter 'looping' was presumably only done to allow separate metering. Prior to 1950, I presume that everything (including 'next door) was fed from the consumer side of the house's meter(s), so no-one could have accused it of being 'looped'. So, although now physically 'looped', that is only for metering reasons.

Kind Regards, John