Studwall between kitchen and bathroom in a flat

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Hi Guys

My 5th floor flat (in a late 60's Council block) has kitchen and bathroom back to back, separated by x3 plasterboard laminate (not good!). On the bathroom side is the WC and wash basin. On the kitchen side is a largish cupboard, which is more or less redundant.

I am planning to remove the existing partition and erect a new studwork one about 1 metre into the kitchen, so that the redundant kitchen cupboard space is incorporated into the bathroom and used to site the WC and wash basin. It will be convenient to run plumbing and wastes, incl soil through the partition.

Space in the flat generally is at a premium, so I'm wondering what the Building Regs min spec might be for the new partition as regards materials, width, acoustic/thermal insulation etc. I've had a look here and studied Building Regs to no avail. Can anyone help, please?

All help greatly appreciated....
 
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If space is that tight, I'd go with 3x2 timbers for the partition, filled with insulation and 15mm acoustic or 19mm pb on either side. Then skimmed.
 
You can get double plasterboard with honeycomb card between, this would give more room and is easy to fit, but dont forget, you will need two doors between the kitchen and the bathroom.
 
you will need two doors between the kitchen and the bathroom.

I don't think that rule still applies. Anyway, by the sound of the description, they just share the wall, not a doorway.
 
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i beilieve the requirements are ventilation[extraction!]

and a sink en route before the kitchen
 
Thanks for the contributions! All much appreciated.

Just a partiton between kitchen and bathroom. No doors involved thankfully!

Unfortunately, I forgot about electrics on both sides of the partition, so I'd need to use at least 4x2 I suppose or risk running foul of electrical regs without steel conduit. Or would it be OK to cut 30mm holes in 75mm timbers to run 25mm diameter conduit?

Then the lower part of the partition needs to accommodate the soil pipe from the toilet for most of it's length.

The more I think about it the wider it gets................
 
You can find the regs. on sound insulation requirements in Part E. There seems to be some ambiguity as to weather or not a kitchen is a habitable room. Kitchen is stated as not habitable but a kitchen diner & a large kitchen is; so the problem you have is to decide when a kitchen become a large kitchen! The others have pretty much covered the rest of the requirements.

For the little extra it costs in materials, I would use 4 x 2 studs & sound insulate anyway; on a new en-suite, I’ve just used 15mm Soundblock & 50mm mineral insulation. Regards the electrics; mine was done under 16th edition but you should check the new 17th edition as it now make safety zones & depth of cable pretty much irrelevant with the requirement for circuits in a bathroom at least to be on a 30ma RCD.
 
Hi Richard

The kitchen is actually getting a bit smaller (hopefully temporarily, pending Planning for an extension to the kitchen onto a balcony next year - don't want to apply at this stage to avoid 'interference'!) and is open plan off the living room/diner, so I guess it's "habitable" even though it'll be only just over 2m square itself. The City Council was not generous in the late '60s! All specs are absolutely minimal here.

I'm going to run the 110mm soil pipe through the lower part of the new partition so it will need a void of around 120 - 125mm to suit. I forgot about that in my original post. I thought I might extend at that width up just above wash basin height and then narrow down to 4x2 or 3x2 studwork to form a shelf (with overhang) on the bathroom side above the basin and inset cupboards above that flush (ish) with the wall. The WC is back to wall so there's little choice on that, really. Well, that's the best I can come up with anyway to minimise on lost space.

I take your point on the 17th Electrical Regs and whilst I can usefully circumvent the requirement for protection within the 50mm depth spec on safe zones with 30mA RCD protection (didn't know it was compulsory for bathrooms, but I've luckily already spec'd 30mA RCD on everything for the new CU an electrician is fitting in a kitchen cupboard on the new partiton), I don't want to run the risk of penetrating cables when fitting cupboards etc in kitchen and bathroom and end up having to rewire. The kitchen has two studwalls opposite each other and two brickwork, which I've chased out ready for capping and rendering, so the cables in there on the ring main will be inaccessible without major disruption. I'd really prefer to play safe even though I'll take up valuable floor space. Correct me, please, if I've got this wrong or missed the point!

On the new en suite you've done, did you use thermal insulation as well as acoustic? I'm not sure whether I'll need it in my case.

Really appreciate the help. Thanks.
 
Hi Richard
The kitchen is actually getting a bit smaller (hopefully temporarily, pending Planning for an extension to the kitchen onto a balcony next year - don't want to apply at this stage to avoid 'interference'!)
I would advise you make sure the work is to current BR’s as you may get picked up on it next time around if your having BI’s in on your extension.

I take your point on the 17th Electrical Regs and whilst I can usefully circumvent the requirement for protection within the 50mm depth spec on safe zones with 30mA RCD protection (didn't know it was compulsory for bathrooms, but I've luckily already spec'd 30mA RCD on everything for the new CU an electrician is fitting in a kitchen cupboard on the new partiton),
Take a look in the Electrical Forum several posts over the last few months on this very subject this is the first I found
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=141170
but there are others

vargen";p="960466 said:
The kitchen has two studwalls opposite each other and two brickwork, which I've chased out ready for capping and rendering, so the cables in there on the ring main will be inaccessible without major disruption. I'd really prefer to play safe even though I'll take up valuable floor space. Correct me, please, if I've got this wrong or missed the point!
The cables don’t have to be accessible but connections & any junction boxes do; under floorboards is not classed as accessible.
vargen";p="960466 said:
On the new en suite you've done, did you use thermal insulation as well as acoustic? I'm not sure whether I'll need it in my case.
You don’t need thermal insulation on an internal wall just a minimum 25mm mineral wool insulation of the specified density; there is, in fact, little difference between the 2 & I used 50mm cavity bats!
 
I meant the cables in the capped chases won't be easily accessible by me without major disruption, but 'accessible' only for the purposes of replacing any damaged wiring in the event I should inadvertently cut or drill into a ring main cable in the studwalls while fitting cupboards etc. Unfortunately, there's only going to be 35mm floor above screed on a concrete plank here, so no floorboards available. And actually only about 20mm ceiling void. My present ceiling is the bottom side of my upstairs neighbour's floor - we share the concrete plank above me - and similarly below. Very tight......

I've interpreted the safe zones as extending from an outlet horizontally into the corner of the room and further horizontally along the adjoining wall to the next oulet (in this case on the ring main for sockets above and below worktop level (latter with fused spurs)). I've therefore got cable in studwalls running from a socket into a corner and thence into capping in the adjacent brick walls (bricks and studs opposite each other) and on to the next outlet. If I cut such a cable in the studwall, as above, I wouldn't want to have to dig the other end out of the brick wall to replace the run. I suppose I could make a cable connection in the studwall to avoid that but it could still be a messy pain I'd prefer to avoid the risk of for the sake of the extra few mm.

Interesting reading, that post in the Electrical forum! The new CU spec'd by the sparks is 14 way dual RCD and MCB. Good enough? I asked him to supply the CU with RCDs on everything but TBH this kind of stuff, RCDs MCBs, RCBOs etc, is a bit beyond me at present. Plan to bone up more shortly so I'm up to speed before he starts. Trying to sort one thing at a time. Didn't realise steel capping needed to be earthed! I thought that just applied to steel conduit but it makes obvious sense, really. I'd better spend some time over on Electricals with my notebook. My version of the 17th doesn't seem to mention that at all in the 'conduits' section, though I guess it probably does elsewhere under 'earthing'.

TBH my head is throbbing with all the various things I'm having to think about and keep in mind on this project. So many awkward things my inexperience can't resolve without sometimes extensive research. I know I should be getting a competent builder, electrician, plumber etc (do have plasterer and electrician for CU and u/f heating, shower connections etc with testing cert & regn with Part P when complete) but I'm only just able to afford it this way and actually enjoy practical, even hard physical stuff.

Appreciate what you say about BRs. I'm doing my utmost to comply to current regs anyway but hope to have this project a well established fait accomplis by the time, or if, we go ahead with the kitchen extension app next year. As it's a flat I'm told an app has to be submitted. I don't think I need consent for anything I'm doing now but I really don't want BIs crawling around while I'm doing stuff I'm not really supposed to do any more. Officially, when finished (will it ever be?) it was all 'done years ago' apart from the new electrics, which will obviously be 17th.

50mm 10Kg/m3 amw cavity bats it is then for the upper and bottom section of the partition (above & below soil pipe). Hope the amw doesn't have to be 'continuous' or I'll have to add even more to partiton width to comply!

Thanks again Richard. Much appreciated.
 
I've interpreted the safe zones as extending from an outlet horizontally into the corner of the room and further horizontally along the adjoining wall to the next oulet (in this case on the ring main for sockets above and below worktop level (latter with fused spurs)).
There is a colour diagram of the safety zones in the Forum somewhere or try Google. You can only spur to one double s/o from the ring so you can't daisy chain them below the worktop & I believe there is a limit to the number of spurs you can have on one ring.
Didn't realise steel capping needed to be earthed! I thought that just applied to steel conduit but it makes obvious sense, really. I'd better spend some time over on Electricals with my notebook. My version of the 17th doesn't seem to mention that at all in the 'conduits' section, though I guess it probably does elsewhere under 'earthing'.
Where did you pick that up from? Your previous assumption is correct, steel capping does not have to be earthed but steel conduit does.
I don't think I need consent for anything I'm doing now but I really don't want BIs crawling around while I'm doing stuff I'm not really supposed to do any more. Officially, when finished (will it ever be?) it was all 'done years ago' apart from the new electrics, which will obviously be 17th.
You don’t need consent but the work must comply with current regs. & is notifyable to LABC I’m afraid; I didn’t mention it before as I got the impression what you were doing was only temporary! You can still DIY &, in theory at least, even the electrics providing you follow the correct submission proceedure but it depends on your LABC; it didn't work too well for me but I got around it. You’re taking a big risk with the “it was all done years ago guv” routine; it’s getting increasingly more difficult to circumvent LABC & not having the necessary compliance/completion certificates for the work you’re doing could lead to problems when you come to sell up or call in the BI’s for your future work. Surveyors & BI’s aren’t stupid (well mostly not anyway!) & if they don’t believe you, it’s down to you to prove to them & not the other way around! Without the necessary paperwork, a future buyer’s loan could be declined by their lender & then you’ve lost your sale even though the buyer may not care! I’ve kept it mostly legit with all the work I’m doing here, I’ve just had my 3rd BI inspection, this one was for a new foul drain & first fix inspection for an en-suite & the next one will be for completion. I’ve found them generally very helpful & accommodating as long as your straight with them but if you p*ss them off & get found out they can turn nasty & a worse case scenario could be an enforcement notice meaning you have to rip the whole lot out & start again. A submission doesn’t cost that much compared to the cost of the work &, for the sake of around 100 quid or so, IMO it’s simply not worth the hassle you could en up creating for yourself!
 
BRs has got me worried now! I just checked the list of notifiable works on the LA BC website again. Nothing 'structural' is being touched (apart from chasing structural brickwork here and there). There is nothing 'new' apart from a large cupboard between l/r and bedroom, which replaces a built-in w/drobe, & which I'll do according to your specs for the k/b studwall partition.

With the exception of "renovation of thermal elements" ie replacement of existing 25mm polystyrene & 18mm chipboard floors with 5mm impact mat under 20mm marmox + addition of electric u/f heating under laminate/ceramics in hall, k &b , and "altering existing electrical installation" ie replacing CU, adding u/f heating & moving some switches and sockets etc, nothing else I am doing seems to require notification. I thought using a qualified sparks would avoid the need for notification of electrics and that would also handily cover the flooring aspect.

The work in the bathroom was started about 4 years ago, when the bath was removed to install shower and laundry cupboard instead. The shower tray is now being replaced with a smaller one and lowered 50mm (+ small work involving strap bosses on soilstack by plumber), the laundry cupboard is being fitted now, and the WC and wash basin are being moved back 600mm with the new partition we've been discussing here. That is a replacement of existing, which is a x3 pb laminate structure, albeit moved about 600mm into the kitchen to absorb the redundant cupboard (in which WC and basin are going), and will conform to current acoustic & electrical specs.

I'll be installing some acoustic insulation in the form of resilient bars (fixed through impact mat to existing concrete plank ceiling) with sound block ceiling throughout. I'm gaining 10mm on floor and losing between 25 and 35mm on ceilings - maybe slightly under 7' 6" here and there. Present floor to ceiling is just about 7' 6".

Maybe I should get a surveyor to take a look around just to be sure. I wouldn't want to find problems in future when trying to sell or extending kitchen. Would I need certs for a 2 bed l/h council flat when selling? Who would ask/know/be able to tell when anything was done? At this stage, I have only stripped d & d pb from k & b for rendering and tiling, taken up k & b flooring and am generally preparing for works to commence, eg chasing, and waiting for EDF to come and move the main electrical connection and meter board from the existing partition onto the new, ready to disappear into a kitchen cupboard with the new CU.

If I do need to notify, how long would the whole process take before I could get underway? My wife is away with her family in Istanbul and due back 19th August. I'd really like to have things nearing completion by then.............. LOL!
 
BRs has got me worried now! I just checked the list of notifiable works on the LA BC website again. Nothing 'structural' is being touched (apart from chasing structural brickwork here and there). There is nothing 'new' apart from a large cupboard between l/r and bedroom, which replaces a built-in w/drobe, & which I'll do according to your specs for the k/b studwall partition.
With the exception of "renovation of thermal elements" ie replacement of existing 25mm polystyrene & 18mm chipboard floors with 5mm impact mat under 20mm marmox + addition of electric u/f heating under laminate/ceramics in hall, k &b , and "altering existing electrical installation" ie replacing CU, adding u/f heating & moving some switches and sockets etc, nothing else I am doing seems to require notification. I thought using a qualified sparks would avoid the need for notification of electrics and that would also handily cover the flooring aspect.

Using qualified trades may not remove the need to notify (if it’s necessary) or guarantee the work they do will comply with the regs. although it definitely should. The onus is on you to notify works to LABC & ensure it complies with current BR’s; LABC may then want to inspect to make sure it does! Using a Part P spark will avoid you getting involved with LABC but they are still notified by whatever body your spark is registered with; & make sure he is as there are some real cowboys around. On completion of the work, sparky completes a form with the description of the work & the test results obtained to his registered body, they then issue a compliance certificate to you & a copy to your LABC who keep it on their file; so they are going to know what you’re up to!
This web site will help if you haven’t already seen it;
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/genpub/en/1115315273728.html

The only way you’re going to know for certain is to ring your LABC or go & see them, explain what you’re doing & see what they say; it’s better to be safe than sorry! They can be really helpful & I think your worrying over nothing

The work in the bathroom was started about 4 years ago, when the bath was removed to install shower and laundry cupboard instead. The shower tray is now being replaced with a smaller one and lowered 50mm (+ small work involving strap bosses on soilstack by plumber), the laundry cupboard is being fitted now, and the WC and wash basin are being moved back 600mm with the new partition we've been discussing here. That is a replacement of existing, which is a x3 pb laminate structure, albeit moved about 600mm into the kitchen to absorb the redundant cupboard (in which WC and basin are going), and will conform to current acoustic & electrical specs.
You’re forming a new room with new connections to a soil stack; the installation or extension of a service or fitting which is controlled under the regulations is, strictly speaking, notifyable work. In your case, they may not be interested in submission or inspection; I notified all the work I was doing here but the BI who came to inspect some new window openings just had a quick glance at a new utility room I’d formed & the pipe runs & connections to an existing stack; that was it.
I'll be installing some acoustic insulation in the form of resilient bars (fixed through impact mat to existing concrete plank ceiling) with sound block ceiling throughout. I'm gaining 10mm on floor and losing between 25 and 35mm on ceilings - maybe slightly under 7' 6" here and there. Present floor to ceiling is just about 7' 6".

I doubt they will be interested in that.

Maybe I should get a surveyor to take a look around just to be sure. I wouldn't want to find problems in future when trying to sell or extending kitchen. Would I need certs for a 2 bed l/h council flat when selling? Who would ask/know/be able to tell when anything was done? At this stage, I have only stripped d & d pb from k & b for rendering and tiling, taken up k & b flooring and am generally preparing for works to commence, eg chasing, and waiting for EDF to come and move the main electrical connection and meter board from the existing partition onto the new, ready to disappear into a kitchen cupboard with the new CU.

The work you’re doing is really quiet minor & you don’t need to go to the expense of getting a surveyor in. You will need a certificate of compliance for the electrical work (which a PROPERLY qualified & registered spark will give you) &, possibly, the other elements of the work that need to comply with BR’s. The type & size of the property, ex council flat or mansion, has nothing to do with it.

Who would ask; well any future buyer’s solicitor for a start, they issue a standard form which you have to complete. It would also have come under HIPS as well at one stage but that appears to have been watered down & then there is the buyers surveyor who, remember, is acting on behalf of whatever establishment is advancing the loan to your buyer; unless they have paid for a separate survey, they are not acting for the buyer! If you don’t have the necessary bits of paper, the only option you have is to lie & then you could end up in a civil court if you get found out.

How would they be able to tell: as I said earlier, they aren’t stupid & if they are in any doubt, the onus will be on you to prove when the work was done not for them to prove it wasn’t!
If I do need to notify, how long would the whole process take before I could get underway? My wife is away with her family in Istanbul and due back 19th August. I'd really like to have things nearing completion by then.............. LOL!
You can submit a Building Notice, pay the fee & start work either 24 or 48 hours later, I can’t remember; you can even do it on line now! But talk to your LABC first, they may say you don’t need to submit & they don’t want to inspect, in which case you can just carry on!
 
vargen wrote:

Didn't realise steel capping needed to be earthed! I thought that just applied to steel conduit but it makes obvious sense, really. I'd better spend some time over on Electricals with my notebook. My version of the 17th doesn't seem to mention that at all in the 'conduits' section, though I guess it probably does elsewhere under 'earthing'.

Where did you pick that up from? Your previous assumption is correct, steel capping does not have to be earthed but steel conduit does.

It's in the thread you pointed me to:
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=141170

LOL There's a lot of nonsense in there (according to my copy of 17th anyway)!

You can only spur to one double s/o from the ring so you can't daisy chain them below the worktop

How do you provide under-worktop sockets for w/machine; fridge; freezer; dishwasher; waste disposal etc then? Can't you spur from over-worktop socket separately down to each device (which I was planning)? Do you need separate radials to each? Groan.....

Does it really constitute forming a new room just to move the existing partition between 2 rooms 600mm, making one smaller and the other larger? Seems a bit OTT, really. I was unsure about the "new connections" re soil stack but, since they'll be out of sight in the service shaft, which, strictly, isn't part of my flat.......... The Council is only ever likely to send an unqualified plumber to fix a tenant's leak in there once in a blue moon. There's a strong chance they'd say no if I ask (since it's theirs and not mine and the connections would be somewhere between my flat and the flat downstairs with very difficult access) but would never know if I didn't. Maybe that's not a problem for BC but could be for the Council as landlord (which is another reason I don't want to tell BC, of course, they'd spill the beans to leasehold section, I'm sure, and then I know for certain I've got weeeeks of headaches coming - been there).

I'll 'phone BC tomorrow and explain what I'm proposing anyway, as you recommend. I've now got everything spec'd to BRs anyway so it ought not to be a problem, as you say. I just hate the idea.......... Better safe than sorry though, for sure.

PS A friend told me yesterday he'd circumvented BC by claiming to the chief BI that a new window in his attic (which is now habitably converted) was purely so they could look out through it whilst in there for storage access. After the BI had left they moved the roof supports across from the specified central position in the room to different locations at each end to avoid ducking. He then proceeded to complete the habitable part of the conversion. I must mention the requirements you pointed out on a sale of property to him......... I assume the BS's surveyor would check the certs at BC and find the defect?[/quote][/url]
 

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